It’s not
just that love for the superhero sub-genre and that commitment to ethical
debate which marks out both Watchman
and The Dark Knight Returns as strangely traditional fantastical comic-books. There’s also the fact that each was designed to be perfectly welcoming
and understandable even to a neophyte entirely ignorant of the business
of the super-people and their hyper-conflicts. In the fact that that storytelling inclusivity was matched with a commitment to providing a
complex and satisfying reading experience lies a great deal of the explanation for why both comics remain so very well regarded.
It’s this purposeful and nurturing maternalism, this sense of a responsibility felt towards readers from far beyond the ranks of the die-hard fanboy and his fellow travellers, which is so rarely shared by today’s creators of superhero comics. For the regrettable fact is that most of 2011's collected editions, strung together with a sequence of written-for-the-trade single issues, rarely manage to provide a reading experience comparable in satisfaction if not kind with that offered by the likes of film and the novel. Yet that's exactly what Watchman and The Dark Knight Returns offer to their readers, and that's in large part why they remain such successful ambassadors for a product which doesn't actually seem to very much want to be represented to anyone beyond the closed ranks of its own.
It’s this purposeful and nurturing maternalism, this sense of a responsibility felt towards readers from far beyond the ranks of the die-hard fanboy and his fellow travellers, which is so rarely shared by today’s creators of superhero comics. For the regrettable fact is that most of 2011's collected editions, strung together with a sequence of written-for-the-trade single issues, rarely manage to provide a reading experience comparable in satisfaction if not kind with that offered by the likes of film and the novel. Yet that's exactly what Watchman and The Dark Knight Returns offer to their readers, and that's in large part why they remain such successful ambassadors for a product which doesn't actually seem to very much want to be represented to anyone beyond the closed ranks of its own.
Because for all of the
narrative complexities of Watchman,
and for all of the innovative kineticism of The
Dark Knight Returns, the qualities which first enable those books to appeal
to a broader audience are the most basic of all comicbook virtues; they make clear
sense, and they offer a rich, rewarding, and literate reading experience. Whether it's Messrs Moore and Gibbons showing us how the linearity of time is fracturing for Dr Manhattan, or it's Frank Miller subtly seeding without over-explaining the importance of Jason Todd to the Dark Knight's character, the stories in these oddly canonical texts are always transparently and involvingly told. In them, the straight-forward is made interesting, the complex is clarified, while the innovative and
the spectacular never obscures the progression of the
story or the clarity of its meaning. To
state this, of course, is to be in the position of emphasising the utterly
obvious, and yet, how many comparable comics does the industry produce these days where even these basic qualities are concerned? To what degree is it
commissioning and publishing work which is lucent and yet intricate,
ethically informed and yet pop-culture exciting, fantastical and yet deeply concerned with
far broader real-world issues than those of crossovers and shocking moments?
If the
point of discussing the de facto canon of the fantastical comicbook is to ask ourselves why there's been
so few nominees to its membership in the years since 1986, then at least something of the answer surely lies in a
catastrophic refusal to engage with the primary responsibilities of
storytelling in the heroic sub-genres. Sadly, today’s comics are often so
deconstructed and ethically disengaged that the act of turning the page might take
the same amount of time and energy as does the business of reading it. A
literate consumer who's learned to expect a considerable return from their investment of time and money in more socially-respectable
mediums will most likely shrug and tune out at such empty-headed product, their prejudices concerning these silly
little superhero comicbooks having apparently been confirmed. Similarly, a text
knee-deep in continuity and threadbare where the logic and emotion of story is concerned is
hardly likely to speak to anyone beyond the Rump. Yet the canon of Watchman and The Dark Knight Returns crosses over to
each subsequent generation in the broader marketplace as well within the ranks of the committed, and it does so in part because its pages provide an
experience which is meaningful, clear, intense and immediately rewarding to
both the long-committed and the less-fanatical reader.
To compare
either Watchman or The Dark Knight Returns to the vast
majority of modern-era comics isn't just to be shocked by today’s lack of
invention, but also by an inconceivably common absence of basic competencies too. In this, today's
superhero book can be very much the worst of both worlds;
unimaginative, unsatisfying, and yet so often difficult to understand too. Surely
material that's so regularly crass and unambitious could at least be easy to follow, be internally consistent and sensibly thought-through?
Yet for all that the pages of the duopoly are easy to engage with and entertaining to experience, it’s obvious that the demands which their creators placed upon themselves while producing them were considerable and undoubtedly often exhausting. Clarity matched with content comes at a considerable price, while of course empty-hearted spectacle and an uncaring obscurity is easily achieved. To compare any single issue of Watchman or The Dark Knight Returns with so much of the everyday super-person product is to suddenly come face-to-face with a collapse of craft and ambition which makes it appear as if a new Dark Age has blighted the American comics mainstream. Somewhere along the line, essential components of both manners and comicbook literary have been lost, and that’s as true for most of today’s limited series as it is for the monthly issues. Whatever the deadlines that creators are working under or the format which they're working to, the end result is often as banal as it's complacent and unimaginative.
Put frankly, the superhero comic book is no longer capable of crossing over to any significant degree because it is no longer literate or rewarding enough in its fundamental aspects. That there are exceptions to this rule is of course a given, and yet, as a rule, the lessons which ought to have been learned from the canon and the tradition which it embodies have been ignored for so long that their very existence is now nothing but some kind of heartening and yet obscure folk memory. No matter how reviving the experience of coming across, for example, Daredevil # 4 or Gen Hope # 9 can be, the fantastical comic book is in terrible straits For now we have comics which, rather than playing to the strengths of the medium and its sub-genres, ape more and more the conventions of film, TV and computer games, and that's true even down to the domination on the page of the usually-inappropriately placed widescreen panel.
Yet for all that the pages of the duopoly are easy to engage with and entertaining to experience, it’s obvious that the demands which their creators placed upon themselves while producing them were considerable and undoubtedly often exhausting. Clarity matched with content comes at a considerable price, while of course empty-hearted spectacle and an uncaring obscurity is easily achieved. To compare any single issue of Watchman or The Dark Knight Returns with so much of the everyday super-person product is to suddenly come face-to-face with a collapse of craft and ambition which makes it appear as if a new Dark Age has blighted the American comics mainstream. Somewhere along the line, essential components of both manners and comicbook literary have been lost, and that’s as true for most of today’s limited series as it is for the monthly issues. Whatever the deadlines that creators are working under or the format which they're working to, the end result is often as banal as it's complacent and unimaginative.
Put frankly, the superhero comic book is no longer capable of crossing over to any significant degree because it is no longer literate or rewarding enough in its fundamental aspects. That there are exceptions to this rule is of course a given, and yet, as a rule, the lessons which ought to have been learned from the canon and the tradition which it embodies have been ignored for so long that their very existence is now nothing but some kind of heartening and yet obscure folk memory. No matter how reviving the experience of coming across, for example, Daredevil # 4 or Gen Hope # 9 can be, the fantastical comic book is in terrible straits For now we have comics which, rather than playing to the strengths of the medium and its sub-genres, ape more and more the conventions of film, TV and computer games, and that's true even down to the domination on the page of the usually-inappropriately placed widescreen panel.
In order to attempt
to crossover to anything of the audience which exists beyond the comic shops, or so it appears, the industry has, by design and chance, effectively
abandoned producing experiences which are both comparable in value while unique
in virtue to even middle-brow books and TV. Instead, the industry
has too often taken a medium and a range of storytelling options already
widely associated with dumbing down, and it's dumbed them down further. Deconstruction at its
least worthwhile, senseless posing money-shots, shallow and slapdash plotting,
and a collapse which appears almost Baudrillardarian in the very basics of the language
of graphic storytelling on the page mark what often feels to be the worst of times.
Because, of
course, the best way to attract a smart and influential audience which has only
ever bought into the superhero book when it was smart and rewarding is to
produce more and more Rump-pleasing pap.
It is of
course perfectly easy to imagine any of the duopoly’s creators producing the equivalent
of a standard-issue modern-era superhero book in very short amount of time
indeed. (A cynic might even suggest that Frank Miller himself has become a past
master at producing work which is as shallow as it is difficult to perceive the
point of.) Yet I wonder how many folks working on today’s be-caped properties could
present a sequence of pages which even succeeded in aping the basic forms of Watchman and The Dark Knight Returns, let alone challenging those comicbook's per-eminence by
adapting and innovating within those structures.
The de
facto canon was established by work which reflected an ambition which was grounded in
competence, a creativity which was framed by knowledge and skill, and a love of
the superhero which was matched by a deliberate and passionate engagement with
the social and political realities of the real world. Until today’s
super-people comics can match that basic inclusiveness and those intensely-felt aspirations and that admirable level of craft, the canon’s ranks are likely to remain uncluttered by any great
number of legitimate successors, or even convincing pretenders..
To be continued, with a look at those aspects of the canon which are very much not conservative in nature;
.
.










Definitely, today's thin gruel can't stand in Watchmen & DKR's shadows.
ReplyDelete[Daredevil's the only definite exception I can think of. I'll give Johnathan Hickman credit for the ambitions of SHIELD, Secret Warriors, & Fantastic Four (haven't read FF, not looking to after your review of issue 6) if not all of the execution, and Rick Remender & Jerome Opena have done a good job on Uncanny X-Force. JH Williams III's art on Batwoman is superb, even though the writing can't match it.]
Let's look at some of the better Big 2 Universe comics of the last 20 years:
- the real event comics of the last couple decade, the prestige mini. Marvels, Golden Age, Kingdom Come, New Frontier, Green Arrow the Longbow Hunters, & Hawkworld all told complete stories that were easy top follow and featured characters whose motivations, actions, and changes were clear and understandable. Quality varied, of course, but there was a minimum standard at work.
- the critically-acclaimed ongoings. Hulk under Peter David, Thunderbolts, Flash and Impulse under Mark Waid and others, Daredevil under Brian Bendis, Black Panther under Christopher Priest, Starman, JSA under David Goyer & Geoff Johns, Suicide Squad, Batman Adventures, JLA under Morrison, etc. Each title had a bit of what Watchmen & DKR had, only in service of continuing adventure comics.
Why, then, aren't they Watchmen or DKR? Sandman at its best, Love & Rockets, Maus, Jimmy Corrigan, etc. are on their level (and DKR barely hangs with those comics; I see WM as the more advanced work, much as I enjoy DKR). I can see 3 of my most recent reads, Habibi, The Death Ray, and Daytripper, being in their company (or at least close). Not even good super-hero comics can get up there. Alan Moore was right in being disappointed that WM has not been eclipsed. Yet no one can seem to make "the next Watchmen."
Maybe the better super-hero comics writers have merely concerned themselves with the stories they wanted to tell, and none of them have had any idea how to surpass WM? Not lack of ambition, just lack of any clue what to do. It sounds ridiculous, but there was only one Shakespeare, Beethoven, Beatles, etc. Maybe Watchmen isn't surpassable in terms of scope and ambition? It's closest predecessor might be Squadron Supreme, a comic that reached high. As good as Mark Gruenwald's story might have been, Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons produced a comic that was miles above it.
Watchmen, to me, epitomizes and recontextualizes that which came before. That may be a trick you can only do once. Still, it reflects past comics while opening up new storytelling techniques and thoughts about superheroes that weren't apparent before. Maybe it's the gate between super-hero comics and art/indy/personal comics? Traditionally, for those of us around my age, that's been Sandman. Hmm...
- Mike Loughlin
So, so true.
ReplyDeleteSimply making well-crafted comics is a huge part of the appeal. Plenty of rather drab yet competently crafted movies sell loads more than our most lauded comic books.
"To compare any single issue of Watchman or The Dark Knight Returns with so much of the everyday super-person product is to suddenly come face-to-face with a collapse of craft and ambition which makes it appear as if a new Dark Age has blighted the American comics mainstream."
ReplyDeleteWe may get the chance to test this, if the continuing rumors are true:
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/10/21/squirrelling-out-details-on-watchmen-2/
I am at once delighted and horrified by the thought....
Hello Mike:- “Definitely, today's thin gruel can't stand in Watchmen & DKR's shadows.”
ReplyDeleteThat wasn’t the conclusion I intended to come you, really. I was genuinely interested in that question of an unofficial and often unconsidered canon. But the further into the piece I’ve got, the more it became clear that the status of the duopoly was in large part based on the basics of craft. Of course, craft on its own can’t begin to produce classic work. But it can produce highly competent and enjoyable work.
”Daredevil's the only definite exception I can think of.”
Daredevil definitely expresses those basics and then adds to them the individual skills and talent of its creators.
“I'll give Johnathan Hickman credit for the ambitions of SHIELD, Secret Warriors, & Fantastic Four (haven't read FF, not looking to after your review of issue 6) if not all of the execution, and Rick Remender & Jerome Opena have done a good job on Uncanny X-Force.”
I struggle with the lack of “density” in those scripts. I certainly agree with you about JH’s ambition, but his execution is always so thin – according to my taste – that I find it hard to care.
“JH Williams III's art on Batwoman is superb, even though the writing can't match it.”
It’s true. There’s a wonderful sense of ability, imagination and ambition in his work. But the script’s not up to scratch as yet.
Let's look at some of the better Big 2 Universe comics of the last 20 years:
”the real event comics of the last couple decade, the prestige mini. Marvels, Golden Age, Kingdom Come, New Frontier, Green Arrow the Longbow Hunters, & Hawkworld all told complete stories that were easy top follow and featured characters whose motivations, actions, and changes were clear and understandable. Quality varied, of course, but there was a minimum standard at work.”
Agreed. (Glad to see the unfairly oft-ignored Hawkworld there.)
”the critically-acclaimed ongoings. Hulk under Peter David, Thunderbolts, Flash and Impulse under Mark Waid and others, Daredevil under Brian Bendis, Black Panther under Christopher Priest, Starman, JSA under David Goyer & Geoff Johns, Suicide Squad, Batman Adventures, JLA under Morrison, etc. Each title had a bit of what Watchmen & DKR had, only in service of continuing adventure comics.”
We might disagree over a few choices, or about whether each comic maintained its quality across the run, but again, I’d agree. (I might throw in Millar’s Superman Adventures there, and then a few dozen others, no doubt ….)
Cont;
Cont;
ReplyDelete” Sandman at its best, Love & Rockets, Maus, Jimmy Corrigan, etc. are on their level (and DKR barely hangs with those comics; I see WM as the more advanced work, much as I enjoy DKR).”
Indeed. I’m not sure whether the bulk of L&R can be included in a discussion of the fantastical, but it certainly can be in terms of quality. Yet I think that all you’ve written here indeed swings us back to the issue of basic competences and knowledge. The “x” factors of the zone, individual abilities, and so on all combine to help create excellence, and that can’t be analysed and reproduced at will. But the next rank down of work – of excellent, fantastic work – certainly can be added to.
“I can see 3 of my most recent reads, Habibi, The Death Ray, and Daytripper, being in their company (or at least close).”
I’ll be sure to check them out soon, Mike. I trust your judgment,
“Not even good super-hero comics can get up there. Alan Moore was right in being disappointed that WM has not been eclipsed. Yet no one can seem to make "the next Watchmen."”
No. But they could place themselves in its company.
”Maybe the better super-hero comics writers have merely concerned themselves with the stories they wanted to tell, and none of them have had any idea how to surpass WM? Not lack of ambition, just lack of any clue what to do. It sounds ridiculous, but there was only one Shakespeare, Beethoven, Beatles, etc. Maybe Watchmen isn't surpassable in terms of scope and ambition? It's closest predecessor might be Squadron Supreme, a comic that reached high. As good as Mark Gruenwald's story might have been, Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons produced a comic that was miles above it.”
Given how flawed certain key aspects of WM are, I find it hard to accept that it can’t be matched and overtaken. And yet I share your sense that perhaps it is the best in many ways that the sub-genre can aspire to.
While I enjoyed Squadron Supreme, I suggest, all other qualities pushed to one side, that Messrs Moore and Gibbons were simply far more technically able as creators. Of course, it’s far far more complex than that, but I think that its those basic skills and the complex achievements which can be won from them which always lie at the heart of the matter.
”Watchmen, to me, epitomizes and recontextualizes that which came before. That may be a trick you can only do once. Still, it reflects past comics while opening up new storytelling techniques and thoughts about superheroes that weren't apparent before. Maybe it's the gate between super-hero comics and art/indy/personal comics? Traditionally, for those of us around my age, that's been Sandman. Hmm...”
That issue of revisionism is certainly one which I’ve been chin-stroking about too. And if things go to plan, that’s the well-wrestled beast which I’ll be picking a fight with next :)
Hello David:- "Simply making well-crafted comics is a huge part of the appeal."
ReplyDeleteAnd the basics are anything but rocket science. Page turners, estblishing shots, plot-reversals, and so on. These things aren't difficult ....
"Plenty of rather drab yet competently crafted movies sell loads more than our most lauded comic books."
Absolutely. Yet the industry has done its best to shove out those readers who want anything which might be traditionally associated with good read in the sense in which I discussed it above, meaning that the Rump has been encouraged to actually regard comics s a matter of thin storytelling and mindlessly spectacular moments.
Oh, dear ...
Hello J:- "I am at once delighted and horrified by the thought.... "
ReplyDeleteYep. Me too. On the one hand, it's a clear sign - if it's true - of an industry eating itself, and itself, and itself. On the other, it'll be interesting, and sadly perhaps both frustrating and amusing, to note whether anything associated with the project can ever justify its existence in any way at all. If Mr Cooke IS associated with it, for example, there's at least part of the programme which will be highly competent and perhaps even actively inspired.
In the sense of the famous and perhaps apocryphal Chinese proverb, Watchman II will, for a week or so at least, constitute an interesting time.
But then, so did the New 52 ...
Mr. Loughlin says:
ReplyDeleteMaybe the better super-hero comics writers have merely concerned themselves with the stories they wanted to tell, and none of them have had any idea how to surpass WM? Not lack of ambition, just lack of any clue what to do. It sounds ridiculous, but there was only one Shakespeare, Beethoven, Beatles, etc. Maybe Watchmen isn't surpassable in terms of scope and ambition?
Interesting possibility, but oh, I can't really believe that. Indulge me:
RE "stories they wanted to tell," I hope that any creator motivated beyond only the pay check is telling stories they want to tell, and even in the lamentable first issues of "Red Hood and the Outlaws," there is a sense of naughty-boy joy in the sexism, which makes me believe the writer had a wonderful time composing it (more's the pity). But there is too much a sense of pandering to the readership in most Big 2 offerings. I can't escape a feeling that the direction and plot points of their recent offerings come from marketing professionals as much as from individual writers and artists.
RE "none of them have had any idea how to surpass WM? Not lack of ambition, just lack of any clue what to do," Certainly, our pros should reach higher than they have been, but I doubt that setting for one's self the overt goal of surpassing WM or DKR is a way to succeed--rather it sounds like a recipe for failure. Better to tell their own stories as best they can, taking inspiration and craft lessons from the best, but forging their own paths. (Frank Miller is an avowed Eisner fan, but his best work honors Eisner with neither slavish imitation or nor a sense of a calculated effort to out-do him.) (um, let's ignore the Spirit movie for the moment.)
RE "there was only one Shakespeare, Beethoven, Beatles, etc. Maybe Watchmen isn't surpassable in terms of scope and ambition," Again, even if this is so, it isn't an excuse for current comics creators to forgo responsibility for trying to make their own "music," and failing at even a basic level of craftsmanship.
The Beatles music still appeals to current audiophiles (so my nieces and nephews affirm), but so do many of their peers from that exciting time of cultural and artistic foment.
(Keith and Mick, back when the Stones were still basically a blues/R&B cover band, were staggered on the occasion when John and Paul sat down in front of them and wrote "I Wanna Be Your Man" for them. They showed that such a thing could be done. But "Satisfaction" wasn't written and isn't loved for how closely it imitates or outdoes the Beatles.)
And that's not to mention the gigabytes of music I can't imagine living without that was written after the Beatles. Imagine if your favorites from the past 40 years decided not to bother tuning their instruments because they couldn't be better than the Beatles. But that's not the way it works.
Every spring, the parks, school yards and athletic fields in my town fill up with kids playing baseball and tennis--and while certainly each might hold a secret hope of being the next DiMaggio or Williams, they don't really expect to--and still they pick up the ball, the bat, the racket. Also in the parks, kids sometimes strum guitars. And sketch on pads or iPads ...
I don't think I'm making much sense anymore, but I think the "next Watchmen" will come from someone who loves making comics and telling stories, and who won't be completely dictated to by a marketing department. For that reason, it is much more likely to come from someone making Web comics than from the Big 2. But that doesn't excuse our Big-2 pros from practicing their craft at their highest levels.
Thank you, Colin and Mr. Loughlin both, for provoking some thoughts.
mikesensei
The idea of Watchman II is risible. But the new DC is on a roll. The superheroisation of the Vertigo characters. the writing for the trade, the fan-wank which passes as stories today, the pitiful level of craft both in editorial and the writer pool ... The list is long.
ReplyDeleteIt is not that the contemporaries of WM or TDK were much better then todays drek. Or that it was radically new. It was the third time Moore did this particular plot.
But - and that was the difference - both were created under circumstances which are The CCC can´t repeat this. They just can´t do it. Quite sad if you think about it.unthinkable today. Both Miller and Moore were more or less new at DC - it always astonishes me how utterly forgotten Miller´s Ronin has become - but they could do their thing.
Hello mikesensei:- “RE "stories they wanted to tell," I hope that any creator motivated beyond only the pay check is telling stories they want to tell, and even in the lamentable first issues of "Red Hood and the Outlaws," there is a sense of naughty-boy joy in the sexism, which makes me believe the writer had a wonderful time composing it (more's the pity).”
ReplyDeleteIt’s a very good point, Mike. Whatever else, there is a sense of a creator who’s thoroughly into their job in Red Hood. A shame the scripts so bad and its ethical content so dubious, as you yourself of course implu.
“But there is too much a sense of pandering to the readership in most Big 2 offerings. I can't escape a feeling that the direction and plot points of their recent offerings come from marketing professionals as much as from individual writers and artists.”
A point which I agree entirely with, and which I’ll be discussing in tomorrow’s piece.
”RE "none of them have had any idea how to surpass WM? Not lack of ambition, just lack of any clue what to do," Certainly, our pros should reach higher than they have been, but I doubt that setting for one's self the overt goal of surpassing WM or DKR is a way to succeed--rather it sounds like a recipe for failure. Better to tell their own stories as best they can, taking inspiration and craft lessons from the best, but forging their own paths.”
I think that your point nails exactly where that ambition should be directed. It’s in matching the craftsmanship of Messers Moore, Gibbons and the-then-Miller where the future lies. It’d be hard to tell a story poorly if that were so.
“Frank Miller is an avowed Eisner fan, but his best work honors Eisner with neither slavish imitation or nor a sense of a calculated effort to out-do him.) (um, let's ignore the Spirit movie for the moment.”
Oh, dear. I read Holy Terror today. Quite possibly the most shockingly poor work I’ve ever read from anyone relative to the skill and talent they’ve proven themselves to possess. It’s so absolutely despicable on so many levels … But he was once a fine artist and writer. Something happened.
cont
cont
ReplyDelete”Imagine if your favorites from the past 40 years decided not to bother tuning their instruments because they couldn't be better than the Beatles. But that's not the way it works.”
No, it’s not, is it? But worse yet is the thought that folks aren’t even noting that there is such a fine set of examples to emulate. At least apathy is a response! I have a terrible fear that there are creators who simply haven’t sat down for hours and hours and learned quite literally from the masters. Or if they have, their understanding of who a master might be is very far from what mine is!
”I don't think I'm making much sense anymore, but I think the "next Watchmen" will come from someone who loves making comics and telling stories, and who won't be completely dictated to by a marketing department. For that reason, it is much more likely to come from someone making Web comics than from the Big 2. But that doesn't excuse our Big-2 pros from practicing their craft at their highest levels.”
I think that’s a very likely scenario, Mike. There’s no reason why that shouldn’t, except that working for the majors allows folks to support themselves, givens them access to a market and properties to play with and adapt. Yet all those options might be overcome, or at least, we must hope they can be! Somewhere out there are a host of folks, who might be 25 or 65, who could produce the next fantastical comicbook. And if the insane market at the moment can’t encourage their work in any traditional sense, then let’s hope that alternative ways forward can be pioneered.
Because there must be gifted and ambitious creators who want to join the ranks of those who want to push the fantastical comic onto the next level. I’ve a list of titles which folks have recently suggested I check out. Given how bad things can seem, I’ve got to the point where, counter-intuitively, optimism seems the only option!
Hello Andy:- “The idea of Watchman II is risible.”
ReplyDeleteIf it wasn’t for Mr Cooke’s supposed involvement, I’d not even be curious about it in any way at all. I suppose that DC does own the characters, and I suppose that Alan Moore is taking other creator’s characters in LOEG himself. But it all leaves an unpleasant taste.
“But the new DC is on a roll. The superheroisation of the Vertigo characters. the writing for the trade, the fan-wank which passes as stories today, the pitiful level of craft both in editorial and the writer pool ... The list is long.”
I was hoping that the second issues of the New 52 would be a little more demanding and/or ambitious. But sadly, the graph isn’t, on the whole, showing an upwards curve.
”But - and that was the difference - both were created under circumstances which are The CCC can´t repeat this. They just can´t do it. Quite sad if you think about it.unthinkable today. Both Miller and Moore were more or less new at DC - it always astonishes me how utterly forgotten Miller´s Ronin has become - but they could do their thing.”
The thing is, there are creators who get to, as you say, do their own thing. BMB. JMS. Geoff Johns. It’s just, for me, that what they tend to regard for value for money and bang for your buck, as Mark Millar put it, isn’t often what I would ….
mikesensei,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you got something out of my ramblings, and that you provided such a meaty response. To address a few of your points:
"I can't escape a feeling that the direction and plot points of their recent offerings come from marketing professionals as much as from individual writers and artists."
Given the strong editorial hand Mr. Didio exerts, I'm sure that's the case at DC. Marvel strikes me as similar, but at least the major writers get their own sandboxes (e.g. Bendis on Avengers, Slott on Spider-Man, HickmaN on FF). Cut out the crossovers and "event" deaths and one might be able to see something decent emerge. Still, Marvel & DC Universe comics are beholden to the bottom line, and need to be cranked out regularly. I don't see a Watchmen or DKR being produced in those conditions. There might be a chance if creators are able to do projects in which the characters don't have to be left usable.
"RE "none of them have had any idea how to surpass WM? Not lack of ambition, just lack of any clue what to do," Certainly, our pros should reach higher than they have been, but I doubt that setting for one's self the overt goal of surpassing WM or DKR is a way to succeed--rather it sounds like a recipe for failure."
Agreed. I just wonder if creators are setting out to se how far the boundaries of the super-hero comic stretch. Watchmen both used and expanded what had been done with super-heroes, and very few later comics even tried to take the genre for a comparable spin. Many of the best recent super-hero comics were genre hybrids (e.g. Priest's Black Panther = super-heroes + political thriller + comedy, Sleeper = super-heroes + gritty crime drama) or metacommentary. Watchmen had a bit of that, but also eye-opening techniques and approaches.
"Better to tell their own stories as best they can, taking inspiration and craft lessons from the best, but forging their own paths."
Definitely. Here the level of talent and ambition comes into play. There were echoes of Moore in everyone from Peter David to James Robinson to Grant Morrison (maybe the best super-hero writer currently working) but no one else is Alan Moore in his prime, at least with super-hero comics. Hopefully, we'll see another comparable creator mix up the genre again sometime in the near future.
cont.
- Mike Loughlin
part 2
ReplyDelete"RE "there was only one Shakespeare, Beethoven, Beatles, etc. Maybe Watchmen isn't surpassable in terms of scope and ambition," Again, even if this is so, it isn't an excuse for current comics creators to forgo responsibility for trying to make their own "music," and failing at even a basic level of craftsmanship."
I think one of Colin's main points is that there is no excuse for lazy comics. I say maybe WM is the apex of the genre, but I'd love to see more writers and artists reaching for that peak.
I used the Beatles as an example because they're often acknowledged as the greatest pop/ rock band in history. Certainly, the Stones et al did things differently, sometimes just as well or better, but the Beatles had the right combination of talent and innovation to be considered the best. That's where my comparison comes in. In the past 40 years we've had lots of great music, but no true "next Beatles."
Naturally there are plenty of people who will never be Bob Dylan, Michael Jordan, Pablo Picasso, or Jack Kirby practicing their crafts. I look forward to seeing what comes next, and hope they keep their efforts strong.
"I don't think I'm making much sense anymore..."
Don't worry, you were making perfect sense.
"... but I think the "next Watchmen" will come from someone who loves making comics and telling stories, and who won't be completely dictated to by a marketing department. For that reason, it is much more likely to come from someone making Web comics than from the Big 2. But that doesn't excuse our Big-2 pros from practicing their craft at their highest levels."
Absolutely. Reading the better non- Big 2 comics, including web comics, there's plenty going on. I put "maybe" in there because I can't close off the possibility that we'll get a Watchmen-worthy super-hero comic at some point. As you say, that no one's hit the bar is no excuse not to try.
- Mike Loughlin
Watchmen II? We're inevitably going to get THIS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w
ReplyDelete- Charles RB
Hello Mike:- "Still, Marvel & DC Universe comics are beholden to the bottom line, and need to be cranked out regularly. I don't see a Watchmen or DKR being produced in those conditions. There might be a chance if creators are able to do projects in which the characters don't have to be left usable."
ReplyDeleteI do know exactly what you're talking about here, and it's something which I often find myself believing. But then I also tend towards the belief that there are many examples of creators producing excellent books month in and out in the past; from the Lee/Ditko Spider-Man to the Moore Swamp Thing and far beyond, there's always been creators who could manage the monthly grind. Now, whether there's enough of them out there, and whether the companies would either pay for them and grant them a measure of freedom, I don't know. But, for this morning at least, I'm going for the optimistic POV :)
"Many of the best recent super-hero comics were genre hybrids (e.g. Priest's Black Panther = super-heroes + political thriller + comedy, Sleeper = super-heroes + gritty crime drama) or metacommentary. Watchmen had a bit of that, but also eye-opening techniques and approaches."
A good call, and that point about the hybridisation of genres is one that I fully intend to touch upon when I return to the canon. (Which sounds pompous, but I really don't mean it that way.) There have been periods in comics history when mixing genres with the superhero paid considerable dividends; in fact, the great melting pot of the 72-5 period saw a whole range of horror/kung fu properties which are still being put to use today.
"There were echoes of Moore in everyone from Peter David to James Robinson to Grant Morrison (maybe the best super-hero writer currently working) but no one else is Alan Moore in his prime, at least with super-hero comics. Hopefully, we'll see another comparable creator mix up the genre again sometime in the near future."
Hear hear. Astonishing to discover that his contributions to the superhero genre beyond Watchmen are becoming somewhat forgotten these days with some areas of the Rump. But if we don't see a comparable talent, at least we see a comparable knowledge of the sub-genre and medium being put to use.
Of course, I've every faith that there are both fine professionals in the biz and fine ones still to be discovered. If teaching convinced me of anything, it's that there's a far greater pool of talent in everything out there if only the systems were in place to identify it and nurture it.
" ... but the Beatles had the right combination of talent and innovation to be considered the best."
Yes, it's hard to see the same social and individual, political and cultural factors ever combining at the same moment. And maybe it is true that the moment for the super-person graphic novel was the mid-eighties. But as you say, if the sub-genre is going to survive, then why would anyone not strive to equal, if not emulate, what went before?
"As you say, that no one's hit the bar is no excuse not to try."
In fact. doesn't that make it all the more exciting? That lack of ambition - at least on the part of publishers, if not editors and professionals - is what really worries. There just doesn't seem to be the ambition at the moment operating in too many places with too many people.
But times change. It's easy to forget that the long mid-Eighties arrived after almost a decade of relative stagnation in the superhero book, although what looked often-mediocre then can now look rather interesting. Yet there were few real highpoints from the Big Two in the period 75-84; X-Men, Titans, Daredevil, Thor; the real stars were the Third Way titles such as Zot! and Nexus. And then, for a few years, there were fireworks firing off everywhere!
So, fingers crossed :)
Hello Charles:- SATURDAY MORNING WATCHMAN is one spin-off that SHOULD be exploited into the ground. 60 seconds of that once a week at the end of an episode of The Daily Show and I'm in heaven ....
ReplyDeleteAnd there's a lovely new BIG version of the clip at;
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/485797
Thanks for reminding me, Charles!