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| From Stan Lee & Jack Kirby's "The Stone Men From Saturn", the first appearance of Thor from Journey Into Mystery # 83, from August of 192. |
It was once one of the most famous, if fondly-regarded, oversights in the history of the superhero comic book. Poor lame Donald Blake flees an alien invasion of Norway and stumbles upon a secret cave in which lies a "gnarled wooden stick". Overcome by a "helpless anger", Blake "strikes the useless cane" against an "immovable boulder" and, at that most fortuitous of moments, finds himself transformed into Thor, "the mightiest warrior of all mythology!". Experimenting with the thunder god's great magical hammer, Blake discovers that by "...stamping the handle twice on the ground ... I can create rain or snow ... which soon grow into a raging tornado!" It's a wonderful comic-book conceit, of course, framing Thor's use of his super-powers in a simple, visually-recognisable ritual of sorts. And it lent the comic's original target audience of young boys an immediately-graspable protocol for storm-summoning while play-acting the role of The Mighty Thor in their imaginations, or even with a hammer borrowed from the family tool-kit.Yet, of course, the problem is that we're told in just one further panel's time that "stamping" the hammer "but once ..." turns it into a cane and Thor into the harmless Dr Blake.
But if a single thump of that hammer turns Thor into Blake, then how can Thor ever manage to stomp it down a second time? How can "All the power of the storm" ever be "Thor's to command", when he can never bash that hammer any more than the once without turning into his hapless and helpless alter ego?
Of course, and for all that we can be sure that Messrs Kirby and Lee regretted that oversight, it's worth pushing any false sense of modern-era snottiness to one side here. Because criticising the tales of the Marvel Comics of the early Sixties in terms of any sensibility and circumstances other than those of their time is an arrogantly anachronistic business. For making sense according to any contemporary understanding of the word wasn't ever anything of a priority back in 1962, because making sense wasn't ever anything of a necessity. All that mattered was snaring as many of those millions of sugar-charged, novelty-habituated, and perpetually-distractible young readers as was possible. That the Marvel creators were able to achieve that while producing comic books which were so untypically innovative and expressive was a substantial bonus, but if the Bullpen's innovations had failed to sell, nothing of the likes of the Fantastic Four and the Amazing Spider-Man would've remained on the stands. The Marvel Revolution was one shaped by the willingness of the marketplace to embrace radically new and invigorating ideas, as well as by the ability of the Bullpen to provide them, but for a great many years, a dull-minded literalism and an obsession with logic and consistency weren't of any commercial advantage at all.
In fact, there's an exceptionally good argument to be made that Marvel was at its most creative and exciting in the period before anyone in the company ever really cared about how sensible their stories were, about how persuasively self-referential their continuity could be.
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| From the fourth Thor adventure, from November 1962; the Thunder God is still managing to "thud" that hammer twice without transforming into Donald Blake. |
For those first few years, pretty much all that mattered was selling those comics, and selling the comics demanded that frame after frame was as saturated with incident and drama and excitement as the audience could want and the culture would permit. And so, where the existing conventions of the boy's action comic demanded densely-told and quietly kinetic stories, Marvel crammed in even more content matched with a far more vigorous measure of kineticism. Plots were loaded up with the most basic of melodramas and characters informed by the least complex of neuroses, which together created a sense of depth and vigour which DC's white-picket-fence restraint could never match. Marvel never added a significant degree of realism to the superhero book, no matter what some later critics have allowed themselves to argue, but it did evoke a child's sense of the complexity of the real far more captivatingly than the competition did. By adding the conflicts generated by their character's two-dimensional inner life to the strange and forcefully intense visuals in their comics, Marvel succeeded in providing the audience with a great deal more value for their pocket money than did any other comics publisher of the age, distinguished or not. Not only was there more happening on the pages of their stories, but it was by comparison far more varied and pacy and powerful.
But working as they did at the most ferocious and demanding of paces, and while quite literally re-creating the superhero sub-genre as they went along, the creators at Marvel certainly weren't competing for the approbation of the literary critics of the Sunday Supplements, let alone the academic judgments of the 21st century's comicbook historians. Well of course they weren't. They were furiously cranking out as much incandescently-compelling product as a tiny company could shift, and the rules by which their comics were constructed and consumed were significantly, and often disconcertingly, different to those which hold for today's publishers and creators. Logic wasn't missing from the product of those years because Lee and Kirby and Ditko and the others didn't care about it, or because they didn't know how to maintain it. No, logic in its most bland and wonder-killing sense was missing because it wasn't relevant, regardless of the tastes of the Marvel creators of the day. To laugh at those comics for being silly, as so many bloggers today are prone to, is the equivilant of mocking the Hip-Hop of 2011 for its lack of bagpipe solos, or bemoaning the absence of finger-painting tie-in products for the latest primetime cop shows. Such things aren't there because they're just not relevant.
And yet, those early Marvels are so often seen as nothing more than primitive versions of today's product, when they are in fact a quite different species of comic-book altogether. Different audiences, different priorities, different methods, different ends.
Strange that we can be so easily fooled by our over-familiarity with characters such as Thor, that we allow ourselves to believe that little has really changed in the superhero comic over the past 50 years or so. The superhero comic, it often seems, hasn't drastically evolved so much as it's become a purer version of itself. Put simply, the sub-genre's somehow grown up and done away with a great many of the indefensibly childish things which once blighted it. But if we were to rationalise away the plot-holes and inconsistencies of those early Journey Into Mystery tales, for example, and if we were to update their cultural context and modernise the characterisation, the product which we'd have refined wouldn't be a souped-up, streamlined, fit-for-purpose, polished-up and substantially improved comic book for 2011. Rather, it would be a significantly different and fatally diminished experience, from which its original purpose had been removed and never replaced. For those elements of the early Thor stories which now seem so incongruous and daft weren't mistakes or a reflection of low ambition matched with a less-developed skills base. Instead, they existed for the specific purpose of hooking an incredibly demanding and ever-evolving audience of young boys, and they did their job, for a good while, with a remarkable degree of success.
Remove those elements aimed at a youthful audience, and what's left isn't a comic for adults. Rather, it's a withered and rather shameful corpse of a product which can't appeal to any great number of adults or children alike. Cut away that which today seems clunky and absurd and ill-considered and the de facto consequence isn't a better comic, a more literate comic, a more grown-up comic. Instead, the process generates an entirely different beast altogether, and one that's been filleted of much of its essential appeal and value.
2.
It's often these seemingly incongruous moments, these panels and sequences which most jar with the modern reader's sense of what's appropriate, that I find the most interesting and, yes, charming too. Every one of those frames which can derail the modern reader's concentration tells us something that was characteristic and distinct about the comic books of the time, about some aspect of storytelling that's since becomes not just lost, but verbotten. Without those strange and dippy and almost shameful awkwardnesses, we might forget that comics hadn't always been grinding inevitably forwards towards the current storytelling status quo. But to note Thor continuing to pointlessly stamp his magic hammer months after his first appearance, for example, and to see those storms still impossibly arriving, tells us more than just the fact that the spectacular was endlessly more important than the logical in the comics of the period. It also informs us that Marvel's relationship with its fans in the period was considerably less developed than it would soon become, and in doing so reemphasises that the past was not simply a less informed and insightful version of today. By the October 1964 issue of Journey Into Mystery, and with Thor only just entering his third year as a comicbook character, the letters column begins with what reads like a terrifying accurate manifestation of a fully-evolved Homo Sapien Fanboyus;
"You might not understand this, but how can you run stories on the boyhood of Thor when at the time Dr Don Blake hadn't even stumbled into the cave to find the magic cane ... unless there were two Thors! ... I hope I have cleared you up on this point or have I mixed you up?"
Stan Lee's response was to kindheartedly concede that the reader had indeed "posed an interesting problem", before offering to "award one of our usual no-prizes to the reader sending in the best comment. (To save us the trouble of figuring it out, natch!)" It's a charming example of the new kind of relationship with the fans which Mr Lee pioneered, but it's also a marker on the road towards literal-mindedness, towards the disemboweling of the spontaneity and vitality of the earliest Marvel comics and the imposition of a far less free-spirited and unselfconscious approach towards the sub-genre. For with the gradual and neurotic removal of so many of the most beguilingly absurd aspects of the superhero, and with the streamlining of the way in which the cape'n'chest-insignia brigade's adventures were told, a fundamental measure of energy and novelty was bargained away for an eventually-stultifying straight-jacket of faux-adult content and thin, comparatively empty narrative techniques.
Of course, the solution to the problems caused by the decision to swap pre-pubescent wonderment for adolescent self-consciousness couldn't ever be to desperately try to replicate the shameless intensity of the high Sixties at Marvel. After all, one of the great virtues of those years was that the work was ever-evolving, if at an ever-decreasing pace. But it is worth considering whether today's comic books truly have compensated for the lack of the original and energetic virtues of the likes of the first Journey Into Mystery tales? Has the sub-genre too often abandoned a barnstorming vitality for a flaccid self-absorption, and swapped an almost psychedelic sense of the luminous for a teenager's sense of the supposedly adult?
For it just can't be a coincidence that those few comics creators who have succeeded in taking the superhero away from a dependency upon the Rump and into a relationship with a broader audience have done so while quite deliberately adding to the emaciated subject matter more recently associated with the sub-genre. Neither Miller, Moore, or Gaiman have participated in the remorseless process of gutting the fantastical comic book through the continued removal of some of its more incongruously fantastical elements. Instead, they've quite deliberately compensated for the loss of so much of the comic-book tradition, and in doing so hybridised the concerns and methods of other mediums, other genres, and other ways of making sense of how and why a story might be told, with whatever's left of the poor undernourished, mainstream super-person book.
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| Trunks on, everyone. It's relocation day ... |
To be continued;
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This is a terrific post, as always. You have touched upon two of favorite theories about superhero comics.
ReplyDeleteThe first is that every successful superhero needs a bit of kinesthetic business that is uniquely their own. Kids famously tie capes around their necks and hold out their arms to "become" Superman, but all the top-tier heroes have their own variation. Spidey has his web shooters, Wonder Woman has her bullet deflecting bracelets, Captain America has his shield throwing and Green Lantern has his ring to point at things that need moving. This is one of the most consistent differences between characters that "made it" by surviving the move the direct market and those that didn't.
No one was better at devising those bits of business than Stan Lee. Kirby and Ditko created some amazing stuff in their post-Marvel years, but their characters tended to lack that critical element.
The second theory relates to your comment about the lack of adult narrative logic in those early Marvels. Readers of our generation grew up with several Articles Of Faith regarding comic book history. None was more important than the idea that Marvel superseded DC Comics as the dominant producer of superhero stories because Marvel provided a more mature, realistic product. That belief, in turn, has led to conviction that the path forward is always ever more "mature content" and ever more "realistic" story-telling.
However, living in this Golden Age of Re-Prints has shaken that Article of Faith for me.
What Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and company were actually doing was a bit more subtle than the Common Comic Culture would have you believe. Like Julie Schwartz and Mort Weisinger at DC, the Marvel bullpen was attempting to devise a hybrid of the Golden Age superhero and the (then contemporary) conventions of Science Fiction. The big difference was that Schwartz and Weisinger came from a background in prose fiction, whereas Lee seems to have acquired a theatrical influence from his time in the WPA.
One effect was Lee's genius with kinesthetic bits of business that I mentioned above. Marvel characters gave "performances" in ways that DC heroes seldom did. Where realism stood in conflict with performance, Marvel always erred on the side of the more compelling characterization. Distinctively Marvel elements, like Johnny Storm shouting "Flame On!", were far less realistic than anything DC was doing during the same period.
These lessons were not lost on Alan Moore, Dave Gibbons or Frank Miller. The main characters in WATCHMEN each have distinct little movements that define their characters. Miller's Batman moved in a totally new, more muscular way that has informed everything from Tim Burton's Batman films to the Arkham Asylum video game.
A child could, in theory, play act Nite Owl by adjusting his goggles in a way that he could never play act the Blue Beetle.
Someone once asked a question about the hammer-stamping. The ret-con response was that it depended on what Thor wanted to happen, it was dependent on his will. That's why he didn't change back to Don Blake when he struck the hammer the first time out of two - he didn't want to.
ReplyDeleteOf course, it doesn't quite explain it all, but, hey - it's only comics.
Ah, what terrific timing! This week I read a few more stories from the first Masterworks volume (courtesy of the local library) and then have started in earnest on the second, which I got in paperback in a stunning $10 deal from Amazon. I think you describe the quality and virtue of the material quite well, although I would say that there is in fact something lacking or deficient in most of the main Thor stories (as opposed to the "Tales of Asgard) prior to #101, when Kirby and Lee finally begin their run. For instance, I just read the first two Zarko stories one day after an other, and I find it hard to describe just why the second one is so superior to the first (it's only Lee, and not Kirby, who's absent from the first one, and we all "know" that Lee didn't really add anything, right?).
ReplyDeleteOne thing that does contribute to your celebartion of absurdity, though, is that there are actually more inconsistencies in the second, superior tale. Time after time people draw weapons on each other in this weaponless future society, and while at first the dialog attemps to reconcile this (poorly), by the end the pretense is cast aside altogether. Whereas the first story is just too boring to even undermine itself (although Thor returning to 1962 and telling the army guys not to ask him where he's been, as it's simply too absurd to believe, is a decent touch).
As another side note, I was drawn to the early Thor by my enjoyment of the SImonson omnibus, which I am almost done with, and having recently read the issue where Simonson acknowledges that Mjolnr used to have time travel ability (while wisely avoiding an explanation of why it can't do that anymore), it was fun to see Thor bust out with this power, with clearly no regard for what implications this would have on issue #300 or so!
The double cane tap, by the way, reminds me a bit of Captain Marvel Jr's transformation problem, although that was a bit better thought out (and in the Golden Age, even!).
Oh, and more of this please!
Well gee, I always thought it was like double-clicking a mouse...
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how I feel about the argument advanced here. I have, in the past, made the argument that older comics have a lot in common with--in fact, come closer than almost any modern form of literature to--traditional folklore and mythology, the Jungian dream-narrative where things happen just because they happen and the audience accepted it because they knew they were dealing with the realm of the purely symbolic. Or because the storyteller had such a magnetic personality. And this is certainly one of the things that keeps superhero comics so vital, the mere fact that they have this deep well of craziness, of raw, unfiltered ideas that spanned decades and which can be hauled up into a modern (or postmodern) narrative, analyzed, and processed into something more sophisticated, sometimes to great success (Morrison's done well with this; Batman of Zurr-En-Arrh springs to mind), sometimes less so. But actually trying to contribute to the well of weirdness is something most superhero writers don't seem to attempt much, and indeed, most pop culture artists in general don't seem interested in doing so. David Lynch is the only one that pops to mind, and he brings a different energy to the table.
That said, I think there's a certain risk here of romanticizing, for lack of a better term, bullshit. If we start to look at the illogic of some of the old comics as irrelevant, or even a strength, then it seems to me we're being a little condescending toward a lot of the genuinely good ideas produced by Stan and Jack and the rest, and in a sense, lowering our standards. Context, yes, sure, but it's not like narrative coherency was invented in the mid-80s by Alan Moore, and even back in Stan and Jack's heyday there were more sophisticated entertainments available to the comic-reading youth. I don't think it's fair to decry "homo fanboyus" when a kid raises their hand and says "Wait, that doesn't actually make sense, does it?" We encourage them to do so in Sunday school (well, I do) so I'm not sure why comics should be exempt from the same impulse. There's a fine line between effervescent, stream-of-consciousness creativity and stuff like "Ugh! He waited each drawer down with rocks!"
I've been reading some Deadpool recently, and I believe that some of his appeal might lie in the possibility that, unlike in 95% of other contemporary comic books, absolutely anything can happen. It's a pity that comics are in a place where the only way that can happen is that he's insane and it's in his imagination.
ReplyDeleteIt is an interesting issue, though, one that I wrestle with in my own creative endeavors- the creating impulse is a very different part of the mind than the reconciling one. If I'm writing a song or a story, I'll start with free-association, create interesting phrases, characters, or situations, then try to zoom out and figure out what's the scenario. Unfortunately, sometimes it ends up getting too bogged down in details and plot and loses that spark of madcap fun I had at first.
And while DKR and WM and Sandman are all books with copious internal consistency (though DKR doesn't seem to be as thick with it), they all boasted quite a lot of feeling of invention. Reading each series for the first time was really a feeling of exploration and wonder.
I recently read some of the House of M crossovers*, and some of them were really good, actually! The best of them allow the reader to feel like s/he's discovering this new world for the first time. And they weren't entirely consistent among themselves, too, which was kind of cool. I get the feeling this is what Flashpoint was supposed to be like if it hadn't sucked (according to everything I've read).
As Mark Waid (I think it was him) said in a War Rocket Ajax interview, an editor told him that the DCU is based on the premise that people can't tell Clark Kent is Superman. In an industry filled choc full of impossible things, it's interesting how committed we all are to the idea that everything has to make sense. Maybe it's an infusion from science fiction, which seems to be based around the idea of integrating the impossible with the familiar, rather than comics, which originally just let the everyday and the fantastical sit next to each other without any attempt to reconcile.
I don't know, I feel like I'm rambling because it's so hard to fundamentally grasp the concept you're getting across, that consistency is not necessarily a good thing, and that sometimes it can get in the way of storytelling.
(in honor of your thesis, I will post this comment without proofreading, like I usually do!)
One more thought- my initial assumption upon reading the beginning of your column was that stamping twice in rapid succession registered differently than just one stamp. After all, if Morse code for S is dot dot dot, and E is a single dot, it must be possible for Mjolnir to distinguish between different tap groupings. My iPhone's microphone/clicker can distinguish between one, two, and three clicks, meaning pause/play, rewind, and fast-forward. Usually. Or am I just trying to justify like you're warning against?
* collected in the trade Wolverine: House of M, kind of a misnomer since only one of the four or five is actually about him
Hello Kid:- Yes, it is only comics, isn't it :) And in fact one of the things which interests me is how so much of the fun can be bled out of the form. By that, I don't mean 'super-people comics shouldn't be serious', but that comics don't have to be flat and dreary, furrow- browed & over-literal.
ReplyDeleteI'd not come across the ret-com explanation. Thank you for that. The plot-holes in those original comics have proven to be a valuable source of new inspiration over the years. And as long as its done in the spirit of invention and respect rather than that of the continuity cop, I'm all for it.
Hello Dean:- “You have touched upon two of favorite theories about superhero comics.”
ReplyDeleteI’m glad that’s so, because it means I get the benefit of your feedback. In truth, this piece is actually the next part of the pieces on the canon, which I never expected. But the whole issue of why these comics were so very alive, and why they’re so often not now, and how the canon’s creators overcome that, all seemed to spin out of reading these early Thors.
“The first is that every successful superhero needs a bit of kinesthetic business that is uniquely their own.”
I agree with your point, and I loved your examples. The whole fallacy of the superhero-for-adults argument is that it presumes that superheroes can’t also be for younger readers on occasion at the same time. Not all the time, but if Lee, Kirby and Ditko could appeal to two audiences and more, then so can today’s books to a greater degree. In fact – but whisper it when the Rump’s own Rump is around – there’s no reason why an ‘adult’ can’t enjoy the ‘kinesthetic business’ you mention. Warren Ellis is very careful to include some such scene in most of his super-hero work.
“The second theory relates to your comment about the lack of adult narrative logic in those early Marvels. Readers of our generation grew up with several Articles Of Faith regarding comic book history. None was more important than the idea that Marvel superseded DC Comics as the dominant producer of superhero stories because Marvel provided a more mature, realistic product. That belief, in turn, has led to conviction that the path forward is always ever more "mature content" and ever more "realistic" story-telling. However, living in this Golden Age of Re-Prints has shaken that Article of Faith for me.”
Bless you, Dean. I knew I was speaking a heresy when I suggested that the high-60s Marvels weren’t the direct ancestors of today’s books in the way that’s so commonly suggested, and I’m glad, though not surprised, that the apostasy isn’t a lonesome business. I’m beginning to strongly believe that nothing has been more unhelpful than the belief that the early Marvels were realistic texts which only required even more realism to make them yet more perfect.
“What Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and company were actually doing was a bit more subtle than the Common Comic Culture would have you believe. Like Julie Schwartz and Mort Weisinger at DC, the Marvel bullpen was attempting to devise a hybrid of the Golden Age superhero and the (then contemporary) conventions of Science Fiction. The big difference was that Schwartz and Weisinger came from a background in prose fiction, whereas Lee seems to have acquired a theatrical influence from his time in the WPA.”
I would definitely agree with you that we’ve a shared cultural property here being shaped by individual taste, skill and experience. And we know from both JS and SL that they were approaching the material in a self-conscious and deliberate fashion in order to attract a broader audience.
cont;
cont;
ReplyDelete“One effect was Lee's genius with kinesthetic bits of business that I mentioned above. Marvel characters gave "performances" in ways that DC heroes seldom did. Where realism stood in conflict with performance, Marvel always erred on the side of the more compelling characterization. Distinctively Marvel elements, like Johnny Storm shouting "Flame On!", were far less realistic than anything DC was doing during the same period.”
And isn’t it telling that those last relics of ‘performance’ in the MU now feel VERY awkward indeed? The very cry of “Avengers Assemble” just feels embarrassing against the grim’n’gritty background of the modern franchise. By extracting certain aspects of the absurd from the superhero book, while leaving the central absurdities lying right there in plain site, the superhero producers have too often succeeded in doing nothing but draining out the wonder from their stories. If the daftness must be bled out, then other traditions have to be fed back in to compensate for the loss of novelty, density and purpose.
“These lessons were not lost on Alan Moore, Dave Gibbons or Frank Miller. The main characters in WATCHMEN each have distinct little movements that define their characters. Miller's Batman moved in a totally new, more muscular way that has informed everything from Tim Burton's Batman films to the Arkham Asylum video game.”
Yeah! That’s where I’m going! I’m glad you saw the theme and that it chimes with your own pre-existing beliefs. WATCHMAN is SO reverential in its treatment of the superhero tradition that when the film arrived, it often seemed like the Camp Batman show. If I say anymore, I’ll not have ANYTHING to add in the last piece on the Canon, but yep, that’s all highly relevant to where I’m going, and I’m glad that it’s where you’ve always been.
“A child could, in theory, play act Nite Owl by adjusting his goggles in a way that he could never play act the Blue Beetle.”
What do you mean “a child”? :) Adults might just happen to have googles and an underground owl-subway too, you know ...
Hello Carl:- “Ah, what terrific timing! This week I read a few more stories from the first Masterworks volume (courtesy of the local library) and then have started in earnest on the second, which I got in paperback in a stunning $10 deal from Amazon.”
ReplyDeleteAh, serendipity. The Splendid Wife is sure that it’s the organising principle of the cosmos …
“I think you describe the quality and virtue of the material quite well, although I would say that there is in fact something lacking or deficient in most of the main Thor stories (as opposed to the "Tales of Asgard) prior to #101, when Kirby and Lee finally begin their run.”
Absolutely no doubt. There’s no doubt that the first few years of Thor are rather dodgy to anybody approaching double-digits. But then I don’t think that Thor was aimed at anyone older at the beginning at all. Lee farmed many of the stories out and even Kirby didn’t seem sure where to run to in any consistent way with the stories. (I don’t say ‘even’ to suggest Kirby was the superior partner. But given his later achievements with stories of the gods, it’s odd that he takes so much time to warm up here.) And Thor was so low on the list of priorities that it was farmed out to more here-today-gone-tomorrow creators than any other early Marvel book.
“For instance, I just read the first two Zarko stories one day after an other, and I find it hard to describe just why the second one is so superior to the first (it's only Lee, and not Kirby, who's absent from the first one, and we all "know" that Lee didn't really add anything, right?)”
My feeling – and its only a personal one – is that the second Zarrko story is crammed full of more of that “stuff” I was wittering on about.. There’s the neurosis of Thor’s relationship with his father and his love for Jane, there’s the in-your-face two-dimensional motivations of the leads – except Zarrko – there’s the constant novelty in far greater amounts, there’s the extra complications of Thor’s reduction in power and his oath to Zarrko. In that density and novelty lies, I’m absolutely sure, the appeal of those High-Sixties books. And you’re so right to mention the two Tomorrow Man stories. I wish I’d thought to! They’re the perfect comparison. Thank you for pointing me in the absolutely correct direction.
“One thing that does contribute to your celebration of absurdity, though, is that there are actually more inconsistencies in the second, superior tale. Time after time people draw weapons on each other in this weaponless future society, and while at first the dialog attempts to reconcile this (poorly), by the end the preteens is cast aside altogether. Whereas the first story is just too boring to even undermine itself (although Thor returning to 1962 and telling the army guys not to ask him where he's been, as it's simply too absurd to believe, is a decent touch).”
I’m going to be talking about some wonderfully daft aspects of the first C-Bomb tale today or tomorrow, but I’m not going to be disagreeing with ANYTHING you say :) And of course, the as-you-say superior second story is full of silliness. But given that that’s so, how has the C.C.C. ever managed to convince itself that an ever-growing ‘realism’ was in any part the key to these story’s appeal?
cont;
cont;
ReplyDelete“As another side note, I was drawn to the early Thor by my enjoyment of the SImonson omnibus, which I am almost done with, and having recently read the issue where Simonson acknowledges that Mjolnr used to have time travel ability (while wisely avoiding an explanation of why it can't do that anymore), it was fun to see Thor bust out with this power, with clearly no regard for what implications this would have on issue #300 or so!”
Simonson understands all about the twin imperatives of density and novelty, doesn’t he? Frog-Thor etc etc? Bless him.
“The double cane tap, by the way, reminds me a bit of Captain Marvel Jr's transformation problem, although that was a bit better thought out (and in the Golden Age, even!).”
And they’re STILL both wonderful conceits, aren’t they?
"Oh, and more of this please!"
That's very kind of you. Thank you :)
Hello Prankster:- “That said, I think there's a certain risk here of romanticizing, for lack of a better term, bullshit.”
ReplyDeleteFair point. That’s why I’ve tried to explain my personal point of view that this BS wasn’t BS at all. It had a specific function, it was the result of deeply creative and commercial practises, and it worked. A purely personal take, of course. But given that I argue that the novelty and the absurdity had a genuine purpose, I’d say that’s the opposite of romanticising. Please don’t get me wrong. On the page, a good-humoured defence can seem stroppy, and I’m actually really pleased that you’re engaging in the debate and forcing me to think twice. But I was keen not to romanticise the silliness, but to actually credit it with agency and with a great deal of the early Marvel’s appeal.
“If we start to look at the illogic of some of the old comics as irrelevant, or even a strength, then it seems to me we're being a little condescending toward a lot of the genuinely good ideas produced by Stan and Jack and the rest, and in a sense, lowering our standards.”
I certainly never intended to be anything other full of praise for the Marvel pioneers. I’ve written constantly and in considerable detail on the blog of my respect for their achievements, and here I was arguing that what others regard as the down-side of their method and success was actually anything but. Novelty and absurdity were essential to the appeal of these early Marvels to their audience. They were essential components of Marvel’s appeal. I worry about today’s view that such things aren’t vital tools in any creator’s toolbox. And my argument is, as I’m sure you immediately nailed, that if you remove those tools, then you’d better add a great deal more to the superhero or all you’ve have is a husk of a sub-genre.
“I don't think it's fair to decry "homo fanboyus" when a kid raises their hand and says "Wait, that doesn't actually make sense, does it?" We encourage them to do so in Sunday school (well, I do) so I'm not sure why comics should be exempt from the same impulse.”
I didn’t decry the letter writer. I was obsessively careful over what I wrote. I quite deliberately typed “what reads like” rather than “what is”, meaning that I wasn’t blaming young Mr Carlos, but intending the example to illustrate how the priorities which drove the content of Marvel changed, and how the relationship with fans changed too. And then I added the following;
“It's a charming example of the new kind of relationship with the fans which Mr Lee pioneered, but it's also a marker on the road towards literal-mindedness, towards the disembowelling of the spontaneity and vitality of the earliest Marvel comics and the imposition of a far less free-spirited and unselfconscious approach towards the sub-genre.”
In that, I said “a marker on the road to literal-mindedness”; I’m not accusing the letter writer of any sin at all. What I’m suggesting is that this is a key sign that the very ideas which inform comics writing are changing. As Stan himself, he’d never thought there was a problem with the stories of young Thor. As soon as consistency comes in, absurdity begins to dwindle. It’s not wrong to demand a greater care to be made with the content of a story. But the letter roughly marks the start of a slippery slope, in which comics raced towards a literal-mindedness without realising that there was a loss of wonder and content in doing so.
cont;
cont;
ReplyDeleteCont;
“There's a fine line between effervescent, stream-of-consciousness creativity and stuff like "Ugh! He waited each drawer down with rocks!"
I think both have the same effect in general terms when the audience is a very youthful one and the creators as skilled and inspired as Marvel’s founding fathers were.
I appreciate you challenging my points, and I regret that my argument didn’t convince you. But I’ll certainly be taking what you’ve said into account in the second piece on this, and trying to ensure that what I write is more robust and less ambiguous. Thank you.
““I'm not sure how I feel about the argument advanced here.”
I’m NEVER sure, Mr P. I put forward an argument in the spirit of trying to work out how I think and feel, and I’m grateful to folks such as yourself who engage in a fair-minded debate afterwards. No, I’m rarely sure of where I stand, and that’s particularly true given that all of this debate is pretty much a matter of opinion. In fact, there are pieces on the blog which I now profoundly disagree with. But I’d not have realised how wrong I was unless I’d’ve dived in and made the mistakes I did, so I tend to think being wrong-headed pays off in the end :)
Hello Historyman:- “I've been reading some Deadpool recently, and I believe that some of his appeal might lie in the possibility that, unlike in 95% of other contemporary comic books, absolutely anything can happen. It's a pity that comics are in a place where the only way that can happen is that he's insane and it's in his imagination.”
ReplyDeleteI agree. I entirely agree. Of course, given how the times and tastes have changed, Deadpool also stands as one creative solution to the loss of wonder. The challenge is how to do that for the characters which are so expected to be pseudo-realistic that there’s little leg-room for absurdity and novelty. In that, I think the creators of the canon have it nailed; replaced the lost absurdity with the forms and conventions of other mediums and genres.
“It is an interesting issue, though, one that I wrestle with in my own creative endeavours- the creating impulse is a very different part of the mind than the reconciling one. If I'm writing a song or a story, I'll start with free-association, create interesting phrases, characters, or situations, then try to zoom out and figure out what's the scenario. Unfortunately, sometimes it ends up getting too bogged down in details and plot and loses that spark of madcap fun I had at first.”
And that’s of course where genius so often lies, and why 99.999999% of us will never be so. When I sit down and re-read ‘Revolution In The Head’ and listen again to the Beatles, I realise that they were so impossibly brilliant because they were able to fuse what you rightly call ‘mad-cap fun’ with taught, demanding structures.
“And while DKR and WM and Sandman are all books with copious internal consistency (though DKR doesn't seem to be as thick with it), they all boasted quite a lot of feeling of invention. Reading each series for the first time was really a feeling of exploration and wonder.”
Absolutely! You’ve nailed it. I’m not suggesting that internal consistency is a bad thing. I’m suggesting that it’s a bad thing when it’s an end in itself, and that the superhero medium – an inherently absurd business in the first place, in the best sense of the term – can’t barter away wonder for logic without importing other storytelling values to compensate for the loss that involves.
“I recently read some of the House of M crossovers*, and some of them were really good, actually! The best of them allow the reader to feel like s/he's discovering this new world for the first time. And they weren't entirely consistent among themselves, too, which was kind of cool. I get the feeling this is what Flashpoint was supposed to be like if it hadn't sucked (according to everything I've read).”
I’ll see if my library has the ‘Wolverine’ volume you recommend. Thank you. Where Flashpoint is concerned, it failed for me because it was just a superhero story without the density, invention and novelty which characterised those early Marvels. Strip the superhero genre of its intensity and its wonder and what's left is, in my opinion, a thin gruel.
cont;
Cont;
ReplyDelete“As Mark Waid (I think it was him) said in a War Rocket Ajax interview, an editor told him that the DCU is based on the premise that people can't tell Clark Kent is Superman. In an industry filled choc full of impossible things, it's interesting how committed we all are to the idea that everything has to make sense. Maybe it's an infusion from science fiction, which seems to be based around the idea of integrating the impossible with the familiar, rather than comics, which originally just let the everyday and the fantastical sit next to each other without any attempt to reconcile.”
The trick is to push that ‘making sense’ as far as it can go in the direction of absurdity. Yet comics seem so often to be trying to get as far away from absurdity as they can, and yet, as you say, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT CLARK LOOKS LIKE SUPERMAN! If we must have a story there, then I’d rather Marty Pasko’s daft tale of Clark’s super- hypnotism having spellbound the world. But must we even have that story?
“I don't know, I feel like I'm rambling because it's so hard to fundamentally grasp the concept you're getting across, that consistency is not necessarily a good thing, and that sometimes it can get in the way of storytelling.”
Well, if we must be consistent, as you say, then we have to add material and develop processes so that the loss of wonder is compensated for. That’s my theory for today, although I fear that it will immediately prove to be as useful as the Python theory that dinosaurs are small at one end, big in the middle, and small at the other end.
“(in honor of your thesis, I will post this comment without proofreading, like I usually do!)”
Hell, even when I do proof-read, and in fact I always do, it always looks as if I’m carelessly free-associating.
“One more thought- my initial assumption upon reading the beginning of your column was that stamping twice in rapid succession registered differently than just one stamp. After all, if Morse code for S is dot dot dot, and E is a single dot, it must be possible for Mjolnir to distinguish between different tap groupings. My iPhone's microphone/clicker can distinguish between one, two, and three clicks, meaning pause/play, rewind, and fast-forward. Usually. Or am I just trying to justify like you're warning against?”
No! Prankster’s comment about double-clicking is another example of how fun it can be to engage with comics and provide your own answers. But the rationalisation wasn’t key to the early Marvel’s success, and in a marketplace where it’s now essential, the priority has to be – I said, knowing nothing – to replace one kind of wonder with another.
But my fear is that the fan and professional wings of the Rump will just keep whittling down the wonder until, one day, why, even Krypto will be written out of continuity ….
No. That would be taking seriousness too far …
Dean:
ReplyDeleteYOU, SIR, ARE A CRIMINAL GENIUS. Your ideas make way too much sense.
Were I to helm a comic book concern, I would insist that every new superhero-type-character have a defining movement of sorts, to appeal to the five-year-old playacting kid in all superhero fans. If the character doesn't appeal on that level, he or she just isn't gonna work.
GENIUS!
To myself, the silver age is devoid of literalism and seems to be more about a comics version of romanticism, more about the emotion rather than the literal. Thor is about a lame man receiving a boon and repelling an invasion of rock people. The strident art of the transformation made the comic popular, and not so much the design (though I admit the printing techniques of the time nesscitated the bold coloring).
ReplyDeleteTo go along with what Mark Waid says, I think the DC Universe (pre new 52) is a universe that wants to beleive in mythology. There are many conditions, societal ones, that produce these sorts of blind spots. Thats the literal explanation, while the real one is; if you poke too many holes into the fantasy and let the reality seep in, not emotional reality, but the real world itself, the entire universe stops making sense and is fighting itself.
Take the Marvel Universe around this time, its based (romantically) on New York, and its heroes are rooted in fear. This is a world that is in the midst of the red scare. Its funny how DC began in needing heroes (and putting blinders) while the Marvel world begins in fear and spends its time vacillating between fearing its heroes or venerating them. (Maybe an article from me about that sometime)
Finally, I wanted to point out my own fun here, and say a Marvel Silver Age character that always made me laugh when I thought about it. It is an easy No Prize, but nothing counts unless there is a story shown :p
Dr. Strange is injured in a car accident and suffers nerve damage to his hands. That's fine and the story is consistent with it. The hands jerk uncontrollably making him unable to be a surgeon. Fast forward to the end of the 8 page origin tale, and while the Ancient One banishes Mordo's spell, he never heals Dr. Stranges hands. One can assume he does, I suppose, but we never see it. So Doc Strange just goes on doing complex movements with his hands, but never actually has them healed. Its a small error and not noticeable, but it always made me smile.
This article reminds me why superhero movies often annoy me. They are constantly apologizing for being about superheroes. They over think themselves and edit all the best elements out, only to create newer, more absurd substitutions.
ReplyDeleteCase in point, the Fantastic Four movie that thought Galactus was too stupid a character but could not resist using him. Okay, we can't have a giant dude land on earth and attempt to eat it... but we can have a flying metal-coated dude riding a surf-board with a high-def tv screen in his tummy.
FAIL!
Either you think the characters are awesome, or you don't! Don't fight the awesome, work with it!
(What happens if Thor taps the hammer three times...?)
ReplyDeleteLooked at this way, those early Silver Age Marvels have more in common with early 2000 AD (and Action! and Battle) than we might think: the tone and look is different, but it's still hyperdense, constantly screaming madness and illogic that doesn't give you time to think "wait, hang on...". (Hell, Power Rangers did the same thing - the production values were pants but it had dinosaur-dressed superheroes fighting monsters with weird stuff and then a guy was hit by a pie)
I like Dean's idea that the heroes that catch on are the ones with a specific pose or phrase that kids can copy. One of the last heroes to catch on was, what, Wolverine? And he's got that whole hunch-and-pop-claws/SNIKT thing working for him. (The Power Rangers had the raise-the-morphers/"IT'S MORPHING TIME! DINOSAUR NAME!" ritual - and doesn't Kick Ass have that little pose with his batons?) And considering these guys run around in costumes jumping into danger, you could argue Johnny yelling "FLAME ON!" is an entirely realistic thing for him to do: if someone like Johnny really could catch on fire and fight crime, he'd probably do that or something similar. There's a Doctor Who blog called TARDIS Emporium that recently argued how Bob Holmes' scripts made Doctor Who realistic by bringing in some deliberate, targeted absurdity, because real life often can be absurd.
- Charles RB
Hello Harvey:- Dean is indeed a most perceptive and knowlegable man. I've learned a great deal from him, and his perspective on the superhero, as well as a spread of other issues too, is ALWAYS worth reading.
ReplyDeleteI agree wholeheartedly with you on the topic!
I probably came off as more combative than I intended, Colin, and I apologize. It's a very good essay, just like everything you write, and I fully agree with your basic points. Like you, I'm partly throwing out ideas rather than trying to build an ironclad thesis. I'm certainly NOT attacking you for criticizing classic Marvel or its fanbase; just the opposite, really, as I'm less likely to romanticize classic Marvel than a lot of comics fans. Though let me be clear: I'll take Stan and Jack over most of what Marvel's produced in the last three decades any day. What you're describing--I think it's sort of in the same ballpark as what others around the web are calling "Thrill-power", maybe it's the same thing, I'm not entirely clear on the definitions--is absolutely present in those old-school Marvel and Golden Age comics, and I applaud you for putting into words something I've struggled to do for a while now. As I said above, I'm fascinated by the rawness of the creativity on display, which seems akin to the earliest, most fundamental stories humanity tells iself--when people compare superheroes to "modern mythology" I'm not sure they even realize how accurate they're being. Not only does it feature the same stream-of-consciousness creative power (and I'd argue this was Kirby's single greatest ability--the others were good at it too, but Kirby was the one who really nailed it) but it managed to get out there into the pop culture through the young baby boomers, in suitably debased form, without a lot of interference from the gatekeepers. It's actually kind of a lightning-strike occurrence, if you think about it.
ReplyDeleteBut at the same time, part of what caused it IS the very debased nature of comics at the time--they were product churned out to keep kids quiet for a while, then thrown away in most cases--and along with that came some attitudes that are less than laudable; editorial sloppiness and general disdain for the form even among its creators (which partly enabled the poor treatment of comics writers and artists). As a result, I feel like we had something fascinating born out of rather unpleasant motives and circumstances. It almost seems like a catch-22, the fact that if comics had been taken more seriously they might not have achieved the attributes that we're admiring here. Am I crazy to think so?
Hi Colin,
ReplyDeleteI loved this post. Given my age I've actually been going back and reading early Marvel comics as I've gotten older and quite frankly, I find alot of them to be superior products of entertainment than a majority of comics these days.
I find that the strengths of the old comics are (as you mention)exciting pacing and plots where loads of things happen in one issue or wildly imaginative notions that I fall in love with (Doom launching the Baxter Building into the sun or Reed Richards bending into the shape of a bow and firing Namor like an arrow spring to my mind).
These strengths feel absent from modern comics. Pacing is wildly off in most comics in my humble opinion. New and amazing ideas and stories where anything can happen rarely appear.
Most comics including some I greatly enjoy are fairly predictable these days.
I find it hard to fault modern writers (for the latter at least) though. After decades of stories I myself would find it difficult to break out of established characterisation and history. Not to mention dealing with a conservative audience that doesn't mind complaining loudly and annoyingly.
I've been reading Stan Lee's 'bio-autography' (that really what he calls it, in a stroke of genius at the beginning)called 'Excelsior' and you really feel the influences on his writing. He talks about learning plot, pacing and dialogue from books like the Bible and the works of Shakespeare so it's not surprising that he confesses his love of dramatic dialogue and exciting pacing leading to his excitement at incorporating them into his new style of comics. I actually think this one of the most important reasons why early Marvel was so genre changing. Kirby et al do amazing art that I love to look at and 'read'. However I'm firmly of the opinion that Stan Lee's new trailblazing style HAS to have been what lead to his comics being so popular with readers as diverse as young children to college students, Professors and parents across the world (as evidenced by the letters column in the FF).
You give it a read, he's a fascinating man and writer. I just love his writing style!
I think a lot of the silliness and absurdity came from the creative back & forth between Kirby (or Ditko, Colan, Buscema, etc.) and Lee and the "Marvel Method" of comic book production. Stan Lee never (to my knowledge) provided a detailed script to weigh Jack Kirby down, and the events Kirby depicted had to be rationalized by Lee.
ReplyDeleteKirby would go on to justify his stories' absurdities himself (and, in the 4th World books, do as good a job as Lee or better as often as not), but Lee never worked with another collaborator as inventive and creatively unhinged. Similarly, Kirby's comics never again had the same structure imposed upon them. I think Kirby running free and Lee picking up after him is the secret to their success.
- Mike Loughlin
Hello “Unknown” – I shall keep your secret identity, Jeff, as far as I know it, for now :)
ReplyDelete“To myself, the silver age is devoid of literalism and seems to be more about a comics version of romanticism, more about the emotion rather than the literal.”
It is, and it’s all the better for it; there’s an awkward jarring at the end of the Silver Age where relevancy and more traditional forms overlap. An interesting period, sometimes very successful, but always a strange mix of water and oil. And though I have nothing against the ‘realistic’ superhero book, and I can think of a few which have worked very well for me, on the whole I think the problem, as you go on to say, is that the closer the superhero gets to the ‘real world’, the less believable in a real world context they become.
“Thats the literal explanation, while the real one is; if you poke too many holes into the fantasy and let the reality seep in, not emotional reality, but the real world itself, the entire universe stops making sense and is fighting itself.”
I found that especially true in the otherwise laudable New 52 Batwoman, where the shot of B’man and B’woman on the snow by an ice-over river just made me think; they’re never going to keep their feet on that. A facile example, but I hope it makes the point./
“Take the Marvel Universe around this time, its based (romantically) on New York, and its heroes are rooted in fear. This is a world that is in the midst of the red scare. Its funny how DC began in needing heroes (and putting blinders) while the Marvel world begins in fear and spends its time vacillating between fearing its heroes or venerating them. (Maybe an article from me about that sometime)”
And how regrettable that DC has decided to throw its hand in with an entirely typical; grim’n’gritty super-person universe with the New 52. (I don’t know if you’ve read the Busiek/Perez JLA/Avengers crossover, but it deals with the differences between the two universes in an extremely smart and fun way.)
“Dr. Strange is injured in a car accident and suffers nerve damage to his hands. That's fine and the story is consistent with it. The hands jerk uncontrollably making him unable to be a surgeon. Fast forward to the end of the 8 page origin tale, and while the Ancient One banishes Mordo's spell, he never heals Dr. Stranges hands. One can assume he does, I suppose, but we never see it. So Doc Strange just goes on doing complex movements with his hands, but never actually has them healed. Its a small error and not noticeable, but it always made me smile.”
It is indeed odd that he relies on those hand gestures to control his magiks, isn’t it? I guess we’re supposed to believe that magik requires less finesse, and yet that would make magic a pretty blunt point-and-go business, wouldn’t it? Of course, there’s also the question of why Strange never took up the position of a consultant or a teacher, a researcher or an administrator. I suppose he had too much ego before Tibet, and too much else to do afterwards …. :)
Hello Samax:- “This article reminds me why superhero movies often annoy me. They are constantly apologizing for being about superheroes. They over think themselves and edit all the best elements out, only to create newer, more absurd substitutions.”
ReplyDeleteIt’s so true. And yet, there are nearly always moments where the worst, or at least the most inappropriate, aspects of the sub-genre are carried over into the movies. I wanted to cover my eyes when the newly be-helmeted Magneto ‘floated’ down to the beach at the end of the most recent X-Men movie. It was so obviously a wire job and it looked so camp Batman, yet without the innocence or charm.
“Case in point, the Fantastic Four movie that thought Galactus was too stupid a character but could not resist using him. Okay, we can't have a giant dude land on earth and attempt to eat it... but we can have a flying metal-coated dude riding a surf-board with a high-def tv screen in his tummy. FAIL!”
Granted, a designer might do away with the big ‘G’ on his buckle and the shorts, but, yes, Galactus is a FANTASTIC idea, and all it’d take would be a moment’s explanation – a la Byrne – that he’s seen by everyone in the light of their experience. Problem solved.
“Either you think the characters are awesome, or you don't! Don't fight the awesome, work with it!”
Absolutely. One of my favourite examples of that is the time-travelling episode of JLU, in which John Stewart, Wonder Woman & - I think – Superman come across the likes of Jonah Hex in the 19th century West. Just awesome, Mr S, just respectful and fun-filled and awesome ….
Hello Charles:- “What happens if Thor taps the hammer three times...?”
ReplyDeleteWell, my head explodes is what! (Which is what I’m looking forward to happening when the Darkwing Duck collection arrives.)
“Looked at this way, those early Silver Age Marvels have more in common with early 2000 AD (and Action! and Battle) than we might think: the tone and look is different, but it's still hyperdense, constantly screaming madness and illogic that doesn't give you time to think "wait, hang on...".
Absolutely! But then, remember how well the Silver Age reprints sat with the Power comics line, with the 1971 TV21 and even Look & Learn with Tales of Asgard. You’re quite right:- the pond wasn’t such a huge ocean to jump at that moment, although it always seemed so!
“Hell, Power Rangers did the same thing - the production values were pants but it had dinosaur-dressed superheroes fighting monsters with weird stuff and then a guy was hit by a pie”
Yes. I would’ve not been able to grasp that a few years ago, but I’m in total agreement. It’s that hyperdensity which you refer to. And that applies to just about all of the very best of 2000ad too; just think Halo Jones, Bad Company and Nemesis.
“I like Dean's idea that the heroes that catch on are the ones with a specific pose or phrase that kids can copy. One of the last heroes to catch on was, what, Wolverine? And he's got that whole hunch-and-pop-claws/SNIKT thing working for him. (The Power Rangers had the raise-the-morphers/"IT'S MORPHING TIME! DINOSAUR NAME!" ritual - and doesn't Kick Ass have that little pose with his batons?)”
Dean’s points are always excellent ones, they really are. And I wish I’d had his firepower backing me up when I argued that a great deal of the appeal of the superhero can lie in whether we can imagine being them or not. I got some stick for that last year – oh, the wounds have healed! – but I think Dean’s point helps to explain at least a youthful liking for the super-folks. And yes, Snikt! does fit in with Dean’s p.o.v.
“There's a Doctor Who blog called TARDIS Emporium that recently argued how Bob Holmes' scripts made Doctor Who realistic by bringing in some deliberate, targeted absurdity, because real life often can be absurd. “
I’ve been reading the Emporium pieces on a fellow’s recommendation. Good, good stuff, isn’t it? And the bleeding out of the absurd from the superhero book HAS made it seem stiff and quite unreal.
Hello Prankster:- “I probably came off as more combative than I intended, Colin, and I apologize.”
ReplyDeleteThat’s a generous thing for you to express, Mr P., and I’m grateful to you for saying. Having said that, I did think that your debate kept pretty much within the line I’m comfortable with on this blog, and I thought I’d try to respectfully respond to robustness with robustness. And it is so easy to transmit the wrong tone with nothing but text, I know that. I may be doing so here, but I do hope not. And, as I believe you know, I really don’t claim to hold the high ground. I may believe some things passionately, but boy am I aware of how often I’ve made mistakes and changed my mind before.
“It's a very good essay, just like everything you write, and I fully agree with your basic points. Like you, I'm partly throwing out ideas rather than trying to build an ironclad thesis. I'm certainly NOT attacking you for criticizing classic Marvel or its fanbase; just the opposite, really, as I'm less likely to romanticize classic Marvel than a lot of comics fans. Though let me be clear: I'll take Stan and Jack over most of what Marvel's produced in the last three decades any day.”
Oh, I think they’re SUCH wonderful creators, Mr P. And I think that so sincerely that I can’t even often bring myself to refer to Mr Kirby in the past sense. And when I talk about the uses that they put absurdity to, I really do mean that they ‘used’ these things. Some of it was chance and some of it habit, but it was all framed by their incredible skills, their admirable knowledge of their craft and their audience. I’ve had a fair degree of stick elsewhere in the blogosphere for speaking well of Mr Lee and his work. Well, if folks can’t see the man’s skill and achievements, and especially when he was at his height in the first eight years of the Sixties, then their taste must be very different to mine.
“As I said above, I'm fascinated by the rawness of the creativity on display, which seems akin to the earliest, most fundamental stories humanity tells iself--when people compare superheroes to "modern mythology" I'm not sure they even realize how accurate they're being. Not only does it feature the same stream-of-consciousness creative power (and I'd argue this was Kirby's single greatest ability--the others were good at it too, but Kirby was the one who really nailed it) but it managed to get out there into the pop culture through the young baby boomers, in suitably debased form, without a lot of interference from the gatekeepers. It's actually kind of a lightning-strike occurrence, if you think about it.”
I agree with you that it was a unique moment in pop-culture history, and given that lightning is impossible to predict with any accuracy, it’s hard to hope for any comparable explosions of achievement. Yet one of the things I do enjoy doing is looking for just a trace of the reasons why something so great occurred. I know I’ll never nail down anything more than the tiniest fraction of that, but that’ll still far more than I’d ever grasp if I didn’t try. And I’m convinced that there’s a great deal of the methodology of the work of that period that could and should be adapted and put to use today.
“It almost seems like a catch-22, the fact that if comics had been taken more seriously they might not have achieved the attributes that we're admiring here. Am I crazy to think so?”
No, I think you describe a vital issue. How does a medium and a sub-genre recapture its vitality when its no longer so marginalised? The only solution I can think of, and it’s only the tiniest percentage of one, is to obsessively study what the greats learned, so that it can be adapted and hybridised with today’s knowledge and culture. What worries me is that comics too often exist in a permanent now, with so much of the learning, the craft of the past being ignored.
My best to you, Mr P.
Hello Ejaz:- “I loved this post.”
ReplyDeleteThank you. I put this piece up with the deadest of hearts, with a certainty that I’d not be able to make my points interesting to anyone else. I’m very grateful for the positive feedback.
“Given my age I've actually been going back and reading early Marvel comics as I've gotten older and quite frankly, I find alot of them to be superior products of entertainment than a majority of comics these days.”
I come from an era where a rejection of the values of the past was practically mandatory. To a lot of the folks I grew up with, 1976/7 and punk really was a Year Zero in which little else mattered beyond the now. I could never buy into that, and yet I’ve always found that attitude beguiling. It’s hard for me to think so badly of most of today’s product, and to consider the work of a distant past to be in general superior, and often by a country mile. But there you go. It doesn’t mean that there’s not great work today. But the average really has dipped, I fear, if I may put it that way.
“I find that the strengths of the old comics are (as you mention)exciting pacing and plots where loads of things happen in one issue or wildly imaginative notions that I fall in love with (Doom launching the Baxter Building into the sun or Reed Richards bending into the shape of a bow and firing Namor like an arrow spring to my mind).”
I quite agree. That determination to match content and novelty drove that achievement. And for all that I know that it’s far harder to innovate today, in a sub-genre that’s been so well mined, I’d like to see a lot more folks trying!
“These strengths feel absent from modern comics. Pacing is wildly off in most comics in my humble opinion. New and amazing ideas and stories where anything can happen rarely appear. Most comics including some I greatly enjoy are fairly predictable these days.”
There’s not a great deal of ambition in the sub-genre, that’s true. And yet I don’t accept that it’s played out. I just think that we need a critical mass of determined, able, ambitious creators. We’ve got a good few handfuls, but we need more …
“I find it hard to fault modern writers (for the latter at least) though.”
Agreed. It’s far more a culture and commercial problem than it’s an individual one.
“I've been reading Stan Lee's 'bio-autography' …You give it a read, he's a fascinating man and writer. I just love his writing style!”
Done. Christmas is a-coming. I’m sure a book token or two can be invested in such a good cause. Thank you for the steer :)
Hello Mike:- “I think a lot of the silliness and absurdity came from the creative back & forth between Kirby (or Ditko, Colan, Buscema, etc.) and Lee and the "Marvel Method" of comic book production. Stan Lee never (to my knowledge) provided a detailed script to weigh Jack Kirby down, and the events Kirby depicted had to be rationalized by Lee.”
ReplyDeleteI entirely agree. And I’ve mentioned that fact in the piece I put up tonight before turning to answering my mail! I say that NOT to imply I think you or anyone else should read it, but to say that I really do agree with you. I have a piece written and ready to go on a specific example which I think shows what happens when artist and writer are telling different stories too. I hope to put that up tomorrow too. So, YES! I quite agree.
“I think Kirby running free and Lee picking up after him is the secret to their success.”
I would still subscribe to the idea that absurdity actually had a series of highly productive narrative and commercial purposes too. But that doesn’t mean that the two approaches are in any way in opposition. I think they sit very well, and by necessity too, together :)
The problem of integrating absurd wonderment with practical concerns brings to mind the debut issue of "Wolverine and the X-Men". Jason Aaron is clearly relishing the opportunity to cram in as much surprising and exciting X-School craziness as he can; but--partially because the book is meant to share a world with the less whimsical "Uncanny" & "Schism", partially because Aaron bases the plot around state inspectors explicitly pointing out how dangerous and badly run the school is--I find myself looking past all the fantastic fun in the book and focusing on how Logan, Kitty, and Hank come across as profoundly incompetent in all aspects of their jobs.
ReplyDeleteNone of the reviews I've read have taken this view, however, so perhaps the problem has less to do with the diminished horizons of the Marvel universe, and more to do with me.
Colin, you ordered a Darkwing Duck trade? What prompted that? I quite enjoy those comics but I would never recommend them to any who didn't also fondly remember the cartoon, as I don't really trust my enjoyment of them. Apropos to this discussion, I feel like there is an inherent handicap in things like DWD being the subject of one's nostalgia, rather than, say, something like the works of Kirby and Lee. At the least, there were some cost-cutting But I would be fascinated to get your take on it, certainly. I've found that when I try to rewatch the show, I find too many flaws, so the comic is certainly well-calibrated as a product that makes me remember what I liked about it while (seemingly?) avoiding said flaws (while perhaps introducing new ones in line with your much decried modern-fanboyism, it's hard to say from my perspective).
ReplyDeleteHello Colin:- "None of the reviews I've read have taken this view, however, so perhaps the problem has less to do with the diminished horizons of the Marvel universe, and more to do with me."
ReplyDeleteFar be it for me to seem to be siding with another member of the Secret Society Of Colin Smiths, but I found myself having exactly the same response. I've only read issue 2, and I'm holding out for the collected edition, but I really did think there was a clash of sensibilities between the absurd kids - the wonderfully absurd kid super-villains - and the super-heroes, who seemed dry, self-important and rather ineffective. Certainly, the conflict between Wolverine and Cyclops seemed forced even in the context of their usually fractious relationship, but the antagonists were splendid fun.
Nope, I agree entirely. And I suspect that a slightly more out-there comic book as a whole might have sat very well with me. It's not that I think that Schism was a poor piece of work. But there was a far more energetic and enjoyable story in there waiting to get out. Yep. I'll second your suspicions ...
.... as of course I'm honour bound to do, Mr Smith :)
Hello Carl:- “Colin, you ordered a Darkwing Duck trade? What prompted that?”
ReplyDeleteA recommendation from Charles led me to find a very, very affordable collection, although it seems that that price may not have actually included it actually being sent! I am still waiting with some trepidation …
“I quite enjoy those comics but I would never recommend them to any who didn't also fondly remember the cartoon, as I don't really trust my enjoyment of them.”
I never saw the cartoons. As such,. I’m fascinated by how it’ll all read to me :)
“But I would be fascinated to get your take on it, certainly. I've found that when I try to rewatch the show, I find too many flaws, so the comic is certainly well-calibrated as a product that makes me remember what I liked about it while (seemingly?) avoiding said flaws (while perhaps introducing new ones in line with your much decried modern-fanboyism, it's hard to say from my perspective).”
Well, your words have inspired me to track down where that collections got, and then, proceeding backwards into the past, I think I’ll watch a few cartoons too. That seems like a fun way of approaching the situation. I wonder if I’ll end up thinking that the comic is the ur-text and the show the tie-in?
Whatever. Thank you for kicking my imagination into gear. Darkwing Duck? Who ever would’ve thought?
Regarding Stephen Strange's nerve damage and the difficulties of magical gesturing, I once...ah, I'm embarrassed, but hell with it...I once came up with an explanation coupled with a story pitch:
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THE HANDS OF THE STRANGEITES
When power levels are roughly equivalent, magical conflicts require out-thinking one’s opponent. Attacks that can be anticipated can be easily blocked. However, unexpected attacks tend to be unexpected because they’re risky. Direct attacks are much safer and more effective, should they land.
Stephen Strange has a unique attribute that means he combines straightforward attacks with confusion in every spell: his hands.
The neurological damage to Strange’s hands prevent him from wielding a scalpel, as they cause him constant, incurable micro-tremors. Those same micro-tremors are enough to alter his spells.
What makes Strange’s magic zap-bolts so confounding to stop is the terribly small unpredictabilities in each one created by his tremors. The tremors create variations in his spells without fully disrupting them. As there is no pattern to the quakes of his fingers, a defending magician has a hell of a time creating a perfect defense. Once in a while, a mage might get lucky and stop a powerful bolt from Doc by shading his shield just right. But most of the time, not so much. It's quite an asset for the good Doctor.
Strange would have been a great mage even without the tremors. His imagination, intellect, hard work, natural affinity for magic, and courage would put him in the upper tier. But that extra little jitter gave him an edge, even as a novice. Strange’s magic is a paradox: precise and sloppy at the same time.
Now a new school of magic has emerged, whose adepts can mimic Strange’s affliction. Through surgery, their hands have been intentionally damaged in ways similar to that of Stephen Strange.
They call themselves the Strangeites; Stephen Strange is both their patron saint. The Strangeites are attacking minor mages around the world and striking harder than any band of rookie sorcerers should. To what end?
The secret founder of the Strangeites is an angry, brilliant woman with an eye for magic and a powerful grudge: Astrid Mordo, estranged daughter of the new Ancient One [Baron Karl Mordo becomes the New Ancient One in another, earlier pitch in my Doc Strange proposal]. The Strangeites, a band of fools she taught a simple trick of combative magic, are her pawns in a secret, dimension-spanning plot of revenge.
[Dramatic music swells, credits roll]
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Sorry. Had to share.