Monday, 9 July 2012

Rob Liefeld, Superstar; How To Kick-Start Three Superhero Comics The Superstar Way (Part 1)

In which the cynical, dismissive blogger discovers that Rob Liefeld appears to be working to an unexpectedly strict model of storytelling;

      
"Most people who bother with the matter at all would admit that the English language is in a bad way", wrote George Orwell in 1946. I'd be willing to stake a few pennies on the likelihood that there's a fair few folks at hype-central, 1700 Broadway who share little of Orwell's concern for the "decay of language". According to the carnival barkers at DC Comics, for example, Rob Liefeld's not just a comics star, but a superstar.What can this possibly mean? It's inconceivable that whoever wrote that copy actually believes that Liefeld's talent, fame and achievement can possibly justify such hyperbole. It's impossible to believe, for example, that anything that Liefeld turns his hand to in the New 52 will ever appear in an Absolute edition, for stranger things haven't actually happened. Even in 2012's pitifully small market for the monthly superhero comic, where just a few thousand readers can keep a book afloat, his supposed superstardom couldn't save Hawk & Dove from being cancelled after just 8 months. How might the likes of bestselling creators such as Brian Michael Bendis and Jim Lee be described in hypespeak if Liefeld deserves such a magnificent title? Should they perhaps be known as superhypersplendidstars, or even coolygloriousfantasti-creators?

What does make a superstar a superstar?

         
There must be some extraordinarily compelling and yet utterly unfathomable reasons why Rob Liefeld's been handed responsibility for Hawkman, Grifter and Deathstroke. Even those who've long since decided that the man's technical skills are every bit the equal of his intellectual gifts and powers of emotional insight must be curious as to why Dan Didio's regime thinks so highly of him. Those of us with little interest in reading his work must still be curious as to why this particular superstar has been given such rank and privilege. DC Editorials' nonsensical declaration that Liefeld has "distinctive sensibilities" brings us no closer to the answer, given that there's no one on Earth whose sensibilities aren't distinctive. (Perhaps someone at DC has the unique sensibilities of a satirist?) Is it Liefeld's supposed reputation as an "edgy industry bad boy" that's won him his promotion, given that that's embarrassingly referred in a DC press release? After all, Liefeld's known for a great many things, but none of them seem to suggest that the man's the future of the mass-market super-book. Perhaps it's his apparent "edginess" that's especially important, whatever that might involve. DC Executive Editor Eddie Berganaza lauds Liefeld for having been "seen as edgy, both within the comic book industry and by his fans", an odd statement which carelessly suggests that (1) Liefeld has no fans in the business and (2) it's the illusion of a quality which counts. Yet Berganaza does go on to argue that being "edgy" is somehow "a great vibe to bring" which will, it appears, help "to push boundaries". He is, of course, speaking utter tosh, flakking up ballyhoo and hogwash, talking loud and saying nothing, and he does Liefeld himself no favours in mystifying the whole business. At least editor Rachel Glucksten gives us a vague sense of why Liefeld is now so important to the New 52, when she tells us that the man's work is characterised by "dynamic storytelling".

Although what that might actually mean is similarly hard to grasp. What is this dynamism and edginess? What's this great vibe all about, and which boundaries are they that the man is likely to be pushing?

           
It does seem that Liefeld himself finds it hard to put into words the qualities that he's bringing as an artist to his triumphate of "heavy-hitting" titles, as we can see from the following exchange from a recent Newsarama interview;

Nrama:  As an artist, what are your biggest challenges to drawing Deathstroke and the story you're telling in this comic? How are you approaching those challenges artistically?

Liefeld: Drawing all these DC characters is a great opportunity. I've always been much more associated with the Marvel and Image side of things so illustrating all the DC characters is great fun.

It's a shame that the interviewer didn't have the opportunity to point out to Liefeld that he hadn't actually answered the question.  There may be something wonderfully amusing about a man who responds to a query about artistic challenges with a line or two about the fun he's going to have with unfamiliar characters, but there's nothing illuminating about his work rather than his character here. Perhaps a better starting point can be found in an interview with Liefeld's co-scripter on The Savage Hawkman, Mark Poulton, who explained to examiner.com that;

"I’ve probably learned the most about writing from Rob than anyone else. He really paces his stories well and knows how to set up great visual shots."

      
It is of course possible that Poulton's expressing an opinion that isn't shared by his employers at DC, but he does seem to be at last giving us a window into Liefeld's supposed strengths. Pacing and the setting-up of "great visual shots", it seems, are the key to understanding the man's appeal. This is at least a more plausible explanation than one which relies upon the quality of the man's artwork and scripting, which remain as inept as they ever were. As you can see from the scan from Deathstroke #9 above, Liefeld not only lacks the most fundamental of chops, but he's also disturbingly shameless. Most of us would feel utterly embarrassed by such work, but obviously not DC's own pocket superstar, who seems unabashed by the fact that he's been a professional cartoonist for almost a quarter of a century and yet never bothered to master the most basic skills of perspective and anatomy.  But then, Liefeld doesn't care about backgrounds, sexism or even common sense either, and perhaps it's understandable why. After all, when you're constantly rewarded for conspicuous artistic failure, it must be next to impossible to grasp why anyone might think badly of your work.

The frustrations of Grifter #9 were discussed previously on TooBusyThinking here.
           
But perhaps Liefeld's job-securing qualities of dynamism and pacing and so on somehow exist separately from the appalling work that the reader can perceive on the page. Can it be that there's something about the structure of his storytelling which works despite the obvious incompetence of what can actually be seen? Is there somewhere in the grammar of his work a hidden quality which results in its appeal to folks who logic suggests should surely know far before? Could it even be that every single amateurish element in his work is actually necessary to achieve this mysteriously beguiling effect of Liefeldism?  Sales of Deathstroke did, after all, jump by more than 20% in the first month of Liefeld's stewardship, although the title actually fell ten places in the estimated sales chart. There has to be something which can explain the Liefeld effect as it works in the short term at least, given that his comics seem so obviously, so exceptionally, so indefensibly poor.

A beautifully obsessed-over page in which nothing happens., with Joe Bennett gilding Rob Liefeld's layouts.
            
To my not inconsiderable surprise, there actually is a particular storytelling method which links Liefeld's work as plotter and/or layout artist for Savage Hawkman, Grifter and Deathstroke. In fact, all three books surprisingly follow the same 6-stage model of how to tell a comicbook story. The similarities between the structure of each of the issues are so strong that it almost seems as if Liefeld might have been using a crib-sheet of some kind. These comics may appear to have been put together from nothing but a random scattering of would-be spectacular indulgences and a great morass of plot-wallowing.  Yet the first issues of each of Liefeld's current charges are quite purposefully constructed according to the following steps;
  1. A monologue in which the title character introduces himself.
  2. The surprise ambush of the lead.
  3. A second surprising attack on the lead.
  4. A static scene in which a huge amount of exposition is dumped
  5. A further punch-up.
  6. A set-up for the next issue, which includes a rather temperate cliffhanger
There is, admittedly, a slight degree of innovation going on in this model. Deathstroke begins with an excruciatingly gauche single page homage to Daredevil: Born Again, for example, but then we're plunged straight into a scene featuring Slade Wilson monologuing out his backstory. Despite all of my expectations, there is undoubtedly a strict method at work here, and it is, as Poulton's words suggest, one that's concerned wth "pacing" and the setting-up of "great visual shots".

Whether the method can be said to work or not is another matter. But I'm just amazed to find it there in the first place, which does raise the spectre of what else Rob Liefeld might be up to that the more cynical blogger has managed to miss.

to be continued;

       
Coming next in this series: A step-by-step guide to the Rob Liefeld method for kick-starting stalled superhero books, with particular attention paid not only the 6 stages of Liefeldianism, but also to matters such as;
  • Why making sense doesn't matter,
  • Why conflict needn't involve any convincing measure of jeopardy
  • Why it's OK to have smart people talking as if they were incredibly thick, 
  • Why stating that a book isn't deconstructed doesn't make it so, 
  • Why being objectivising women isn't anything to worry about, 
  • Why exciting comics don't need to be interesting comic books,and vice-versa,
  • Why butch super-types with ridiculous names aren't oh-so-90s anymore, and even more!
But first, tomorrow's The Year In Comics post features alien intruders, chilling executions, heroes appalled by violence and hovercraft that look just like flying saucers ...

.

68 comments:

  1. My guess is that some people just feel some 90s nostalgia (or have a brother or uncle or dad that fed them 90s nostalgia) and thus DC hopes to sell a handful of extra copies of poorly selling comics to that crowd before cancelling the titles altogether?

    For my part, even in the 90s, Liefeld's name was enough to make me not pick up a comic.

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    1. Hello Osvaldo:- One of the things that's most intriguing about what we might call the "Liefeld question" is how many different opinions there are about his appeal. You've suggested nostalgia, for example, while one of the following comments will suggest that his work is interesting to today's younger readers.

      But there's no denying that DC must believe that his name and work will sell copies. Perhaps they will. Yet the fact that he might - or might not - sell a few more thousand books doesn't, of course, mean that others might sell more, and do so with better work.

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  2. In answer to the first part of this post, yes, Liefeld is a superstar. A fading superstar, but still a superstar. It depends on how you define superstar I guess. Ability does not necessarily play a part in the role (not every acting superstar is actually very good at acting), it's all about recognition. I imagine there are very few comic readers unfamiliar with him Rob's work, that makes him a superstar to me. Sadly.
    That's the horrible business of even a backhanded defense of Liefeld over with. I am actually interested in someone taking a look at Liefeld's technique. All snark and easy criticism aside, whatever his detractors might think, the man has made a lot of money and reached a lot of fans, perhaps a serious examination of what made him so popular would be informative. The only reason I've ever heard for his (and a lot of the old Image artists) success is that the readers of the time (teen and preteen fans back when comics sold in larger numbers) responded to the work of someone who drew like they did, all bad anatomy and pointless crosshatching but full of pin ups and action. Maybe there's more to his success than that?

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    1. Hello Paul:- Well, the first thing to say is that I really will be looking as closely as my limited powers will allow to RL's storytelling in the second part of this post. I say that not to suggest that that means it's going to be worth looking it, but this was always meant to be a lead-in to a detailed look at the 6 aspects of structure which I mentioned. Your point about his success relying on something more than chance and fanboyisms is the same one I trying to touch upon towards the end of the post above. As I said;

      "But I'm just amazed to find it there in the first place, which does raise the spectre of what else Rob Liefeld might be up to that the more cynical blogger has managed to miss."

      One of the reasons why I wanted to write about Liefeld was the challenge of finding an approach that was even in the slightest bit different. I hope that looking at the structure of these three books does something of that. As you say, everybody has heard of RL, and everybody, it seems, also has an opinion. I can't speak to the reason why he was and is popular. But I can try to take a look at him as I would anyone else's work, as a creator rather than the enemy or a favoured artist :)

      I won't pretend that I can respect a great deal of what he's done. But I am going to look at something other than what I like ...

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    2. I'm not sure there is more to RL's success than luck and fanboys, I just hope there's more to it than that, as it shines a light on a lot of what I find worrying about superhero comics. I worked at a comic shop around about the 2nd year or so of Image and the kind of titles they put out and the readers they had did more to curb my interest in comics than discovering girls and music could ever hope to achieve. Maybe you'll be able to unearth something interesting and insightful through your endeavors.... but it certainly is a challenge you've set yourself!
      The focus on the structure of RL's plotting should be interesting. At a time when so many films seem to adhere to the template laid down by the likes of Robert McKee without fleshing it out with any personality or POV a look at RL's strict adherence to a shallow template seems timely.
      Looking forward to part 2.

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    3. Hello Paul;- Thanks for popping back. I was concerned that my answer might sound snotty when the intention was anything but. That's the problem with cold hard type, isn't it? I'm glad that it didn't come across any other way than I'd intended.

      I'm not exaggerating when I say that I was shocked to find how each of those # 9s followed - and followed strictly - the same structure. Of course, it could've been entirely unconscious, or he could've been just writing one story right after the another; there are as many possible explanations as idle speculation can generate. But that structure IS there and it is worth paying attention to. I think there's some genuinely interesting things going on, though I won't pretend and say that I think it's well done. But RL doesn't even get the credit for that, so .... why not?

      Robert McKee and Volger etc are the bane of modern storytelling, aren't they? I've got time for McKee, though it doesn't appeal to me. I know the likes of John Cleese and Paul Cornell think very highly of him. In fact, I really SHOULD be paying attention, I guess. But as you say, his methods, and those aligned with them, have become so ubiquitous .... Bad stuff.

      I loved the snapshot of your comic-shop experience. There's a slice'o'life graphic novel in that :)

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    4. No, nothing snotty received, although I had the same worry when I posted my comment so I understand the concern!
      There's an Alan Moore interview where he talks about early comics being like a coca leaf, when chewed the give a mild buzz, with Marvel distilling that metaphorical buzz into the high one would get from cocaine. Image, well Image distilled the comic formula into crack for kids. This kind of distillation of comics into an impure rush may account for the repetitive nature of the structure of Liefeld's comics, it's certainly something I'm interested in reading about in further posts.
      Ah, my comic shop experience... strange days indeed. The lovely Peter Bangs was a regular customer, and one of the few things that made it a positive experience. I could do a graphic novel, but then you'd tell me off for not working on Paintgirl!

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    5. Hello Paul:- I think the cocaine/crack analogy works well for any modern-era media which stupidly aims at a narrow niche in order to fleece it. To my mind, and here I know I repeat myself, there's been 4 great periods in the super-book's history, and each of them have been made so by the importation of form and content from way beyond the super-book. (The Marvel Revolution, Marvel 1974-7, DC 1983-88, Marvel 2000-4 are the highpoints for me, the moments when there were a significant number of radical and smart comics.) When the industry decides to tell nothing but superhero tales, the quality collapses. And that's what has happened since the mid-2000s, for example, despite a number of fine books.

      I had no idea that Pete bought books from you! I find that fascinating. It just reinforces my opinion that somewhere down the lines there's a comic-shop graphic novel or strip there :) But first;

      PAINT-GIRL!!!

      And to those who don't know who the splendid Paint Girl is;

      http://paulhd.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/more-paintgirl.html

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    6. I must confess I was briefly sucked in by Marvel's 2000-4 period, but ultimately (no pun intended) found it fairly slight and didn't stick with it. I did have a soft spot for a lot of what DC tried to do during the 80s and find it a shame that Watchmen and DK worked their influence more than, say, Blue Devil (all flaws and weaknesses aside I was suckered in by 'DC, we're making comics fun again') and later, El Diablo.
      Yes, Pete was a great customer, one who usually trusts your recommendations and so makes you want give good recommendations - and also introduced me to a lot of comics. That's the only part of retail I miss!
      Paintgirl plugs are always welcome!

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    7. Hello Paul:- The post-2000 Marvel let-a-thousand-flowers-bloom didn't last long, but it did have The Ultimates, Ultimate Spider-Man, X-Force, the early JMS Spideys, Spider-Man's Tangled Web, the Waid FF,the Morrison X-Men, the Ennis Punisher, the Bendis DD, the woefully under-rated Deadline ... even off the top of my head, that's a good number of books for two or three years.

      Blue Devil and - I'd forgotten, how could I? -El Diablo were great books. Amethyst is another forgotten book that comes to mind. We tend to focus on the post-Crisis reboot, but pre-Crisis had some great books beyond Moore and Miller. When even Atari Force is a REALLY GOOD read, you know the times are better than normal.

      PAINTGIRL! PAINTGIRL!

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    8. Initially all those Marvel titles held some appeal for me, but I must admit, that didn't last, and I actually ended up with a strong dislike for some of them. Come to think of it I'm not sure what the turning point for me was.
      I'm very tempted to buy the Amethyst collection, and recall Atari Force having some excellent artwork. DC did seem to throw a lot at the wall back then, sadly grim and gritty is what stuck.
      Paintgirl ideas are still being mixed:)

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    9. Hello Paul:- For me the fall of that Marvel was 04, when it became really obvious that Jemas was attempting to micro-manage books like the FF. Then he left Marvel and there was an irony in the fact that his radical spirit was immediately missed. There was about 2 and a half years of really good books and then the "scene" curdled really quickly, leaving a few highpoints and a mass of books following pretty much the same template as today. A less intense, rump-friendly template, but the mold was cast.

      There's something to be said for a company with the will and freedom to throw a great deal against the wall. It couldn't be done today, the purse-strings are too tightly held. A shame. All of those 4 high points of the post-1960 mainstream were marked by comics being pumped out almost without rhyme or reason. Spider-Man, Howard The Duck, Swamp Thing, X-Force; concepts this daring are unlikely to appear in such radical forms in times such as today :-(

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  3. I'm willing to wager that a good portion of Liefeld's "fandom" is amongst younger comics readers, and if you look at his art and stories from the perspective lad - he's getting what he wants out of a comic: huge muscly tough guy-posturing heroes always grimacing and gritting teeth and spouting manly "I came to conquer" dialogue, women who are proportioned horribly for real-life but perfectly for the preteen and young teen mind (all boobs and butts and long legs - who cares about waists, hands or feet), stories that are simple enough to follow, and frequent action.

    I was there once. I thought Liefeld was "awesome".Way back when, young me was thrilled when he came aboard New Mutants. I couldn't get enough, everything he drew looked so "cool". But I got older, and everything wrong became apparent, and I haven't read a Liefeld comic since (in fact, I quite around the X-Force/Spiderman crossover).

    Liefeld is awful, no doubt. But I don't quite get the venom spewed at him throughout the comics world (not directed at you, Colin). I suspect some of this comes from jealousy - not because of his talent, but because of his bankroll. The guy is mega-rich, and got that way off of limited talent. I understand how this upsets creators, especially those with greater talents.

    But who can blame Liefeld for taking the money? Wouldn't we all? Is it his fault he's marketed this way? Stan Lee started this nonsense way back when, and DC is just continuing it. I get the sense that Liefeld is just as surprised as anyone how far he's gone. I think you have an opportunity, Colin, to go further back in the history of comics, to the late 80's/early 90's when comic companies - particularly Marvel - were manufacturing comics "superstars", and Liefeld was one of them. Liefeld is a marketed name, after all these years.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJhoa2SVGNA

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    1. Hello Matthew:- Several thoughts come to mind. Firstly,it should be possible to appeal to a more youthful, and presumably male, audience without producing work of RL's quality. I know that you weren't suggesting that that audience could only be served by RL, but I do see that argued a great deal. If that is what the industry is doing, then it's opting for the easy way out once again. There's NOTHING wrong about finding RL's work AWESOME, of course, but I do believe that the qualities which appeal could be incorporated into work where the creators could be bothered to learn the basics of perspective, do a little research etc etc

      I have several particular reasons for not liking RL's work. I really can't stick the laziness that I see there. As I say in the above, he obviously hasn't made the slightest attempt to improve as a creator. I can't help but feel ... less than positively about that given my own love for comics, and for the craft of it. I've also never been able to think of RK without remembering the interview he gave where he argued that Alan Moore wasn't an artist because he wanted to paid for the work he'd done for Liefeld. The contempt in that interview sickened me and that's stuck.

      I agree with you that there's space for someone, or a group of someones, to go back and discuss that period of the early 90s and the "superstar artists". I fear I just don't have the knowledge that's needed to do so. I couldn't stick the first wave of Image books, although I did recognise the enthusiasm and love for the genre that they displayed. But I opted out of that, as I largely had from Marvel's work and as I soon would from DC. As a result, I just don't know my stuff where those years are concerned. However, I know that Sequart are looking to make a documentary about Image and those early years. I suspect that I might learn a great deal from there about what I missed.

      In the end, Matthew, it's the craft that wins me over or alienates me. I don't have to like a book, but I do have to feel like all involved are working as hard they can to do the very best they can. That's what I pays m'money for. In trying to dig a little deeper in his storytelling in these posts that I'm doing, I'm hoping to find a way of talking about a creator without simply flaying the work for the idleness it reflects.

      If you don't love the craft as well as the returns, I can't be bothered. Do I blame RF for taking the rewards? Hell, no. But I can blame him for his being such a hack.

      For gawds sake, Matthew, get yourself into the industry and give folks action heroes with super-moustaches instead and super-crafted stories too :)

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    2. Is it really younger readers who want what Liefeld does? I'd assumed his younger audience grew up and some still have a nostalgia for what he does. Perhaps younger readers yearn for what Liefeld offers, but I worry that in aiming blame at a younger readership we are absolving the guilt of the older readers who, based on my own visits to comics shops, seem more likely to be reading Rob's comics. Back in the 90s I could imagine kids copying his drawings and achieving similar results and so enjoying his work all the more, rather than going through the humiliating process of copying, say, Herge and realising that those simple looking drawings are actually far harder to emulate. I have a harder time imagine people copying Liefeld work nowadays.
      I'm not sure the venom aimed at Liefeld is just jealousy of money, I know far too many artists who have inherent standards and would not want to sell them short, even if they do want to earn as much as they can in the process. I remember an article David Lloyd wrote saying creators should proudly proclaim the quality in comics and be equally as vocal about the rubbish and I think this has more to do with the venom Liefeld receives. Rob's work is demonstrably bad and so it is very easy for anyone to criticise him for it, to take pleasure in criticising it.
      As I said earlier, I'm really interested to see if RL's work can be critiqued without throwing hands in the air and just yelling “but it's rubbish, look at Captain America's boobs!”, especially as I'm not sure RL is a hack, but rather a permanent adolescent with an abundance of confidence and a lack of self awareness, qualities that can blind an artist to even the most obvious flaws in their work.

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    3. Hello Paul:- I guess there's no way for us to know what Liefeld's audience actually is, though I wish we did! I do find your point about some older readers excusing their tastes with reference to the gatekeeper function of RL interesting. And convincing too. There doesn't seem to be a great deal of evidence that there's any 9 or 10 year olds getting into the super-book anyway, and I'd suggest that there's only a small sub-set of the audience that's going to be won over by such a style anyway. We live in a culture which is HIGHLY literate, for gawd's sake. From Harry Potter to Twilight, there's a HUGE number of READERS who are used to reading sophisticated demanding material. And that's the future, surely, A pre-established audience that adores fantasy and wants to be challenged. And the industry feeds it exactly the opposite. They're the readers who certainly aren't going to be copying RL. And the ones who are would also, surely, be attracted by smarter stuff. Any industry that treats its audience for an expensive object as idiots is going to suffer, and I'm afraid the comics industry has a history of doing that. Not every book, not every company; but I do wish that there was more ambition where anyone except the rump is concerned.

      I'm going to have a real shot at showing where I think RL's storytelling works. And I promise not to mention the infamous man-boobs.

      I do think that the term 'hack' is appropriate to describe a creator who makes no effort to improve their basic skills. But I share with you the belief that RL's motivation is most probably anything but cynicim. He may not be willing to put the work in, but he seems to love what he does. The idleness of the hack then, but not the contempt of one. What a peculiar mixture that would be, if it were to carry anything of the truth.

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    4. This leads into my obsession with the how the comic industry abandoned kids.... but perhaps a bit too off topic to derail a Liefeld post!
      Tricky one, 'hack'. It's an usually an insult, for valid reasons, but hack always, to me, at least implies a degree of craft, and craft is not a word I associate with Liefeld.

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    5. Hello Paul:- The comics industry couldn't wait to drop the kid's books, could it? With some notable exceptions such as Archie, who are ahead of the game in a great many ways in 2012, the rump-fans who made it into the biz just couldn't wait to throw out pretty much everything but superheroes. Were there exceptions to that rule? Absolutely. There were many pros who tried to keep diversity alive. But as a whole, they just couldn't be bothered.

      And now of course, there's hardly anything left of the industry. Turkeys DO vote for Christmas.

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    6. It's great that comics wanted to 'grow up', but I never understood why that meant abandoning kids.
      It is nice to see book publishers get in on the act and try to produce more comics for children. A friend of mine has plans to pick my brains for a site that helps promote comics for kids, and I'm more than happy to lend a hand!

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    7. Please do let me know when and if that site comes about. I'd be fascinated to show how that project pans out :)

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    8. It's at the mercy of my friend, who is (luckily for him!) busy writing comics, so the time scale is unknown, but rest assured I'll be letting as many people know as possible!

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  4. Those six points you made about Liefled's work ring so true, Chris. A Liefled-backed comic is virtually reading by numbers; its like someone adapted the drinking-game to the four-colour world.
    Liefeld cannot draw feet - do his creations have any? My God, they certainly have necks; so steroid-id out it makes me feel quite ill. We are so used to non-comic readers pointing out with unabashed glee how super-heroes are so psychically unrealistic with their massive muscles and what not, yet Liefelds characters make the DC and Marvel heroes of yesteryear look positively normal in comparison. And everyone has either the permanently requisite snarl or the cheesy grin making it hard to figure out whos who; in an early Hawk and Dove I couldnt tell who Hank Hall was in a scene with another guy.
    For me he had his day in the 90s with the Image and Top Cow crowd. I think its sad how 'edgy' he was back then [and in a way, he was] but now hes **grown up** and accepted a mainstream job with DC; hes the equivalent of comics' Tom Cruise. Hot back in the day but now his, er, shortcomings are becoming evident and he isnt as hot as he was [we knew it already but were prepared to ignore them].

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    1. Hello Karl:- I can't disagree with your complaints. I've never been a RL fan. I wasn't in the days of X-Force and I'm not now. Yet - there's a BUT coming! - I do think there's significant elements of what we used to have call, in my teaching days, good practise. I'm not suggested that the work is in any way my cup of tea, but having stared at those comics for a while, I really can see - because I failed to before - something of where those books worked. Apologists tend to emphasise that RL is full of action scenes and so on. I'm not sure they're being fair to RL's work.

      But then I'm getting ahead of myself.

      None of which is to disagree with you. I'm never slow to disagree when I'm thinking too much! Perhaps I just like the idea of there always being more than the eye can see :)

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  5. Well, this is comics, so presumably Superstar means he wears his pants outside his tights...

    I always feel a touch of trepidation reading posts about Liefeld, sure I'd have trouble actually making my way through one of his comics, but he tends to get a disproportionate amount of hate because he acheived massive success despite a style most fans balk at. And unlike music/films/novels/whatever we have such a shallow pool of genuine superstars he's possibly the most prominent creator who's hated more than he's loved.

    Plus, he's appears to be persistently pursuing a personal creative vision, which is something I'll always respect. (If not actually enjoy.)

    But...

    "It's impossible to believe, for example, that anything that Liefeld turns his hand to in the New 52 will ever appear in an Absolute edition, for stranger things haven't actually happened." Had me cracking up, and I'm glad to see you're going beyond the usual easy criticism to find out whats going on. (Not that I expect less from you, but it's so easy to just point and laugh without adding anything new.)

    I'm looking forward to part two... which isn't something I'd normally expect to say about a Leifeld post!

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    1. Hello Mark:- Good to see you back again until the TooBusy logo.

      You make two strong points; he really is the most successful and yet least admired creator. That's why I'm digging into his style. There HAS to be more than just those muscular necks and ridiculous breast. Perhaps not a lot more, but more.

      And you're right - he does BELIEVE in this stuff, or so it seems. He may lack perspective, or even the will to want to develop his craft, but he does have, as you say, "a personal creative vision". And I'm not being snarky about that either.

      Thanks for the kind words. I hope the next part is worth the visiting!

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  6. Colin!

    Bear in mind that my comments were coming from my youthful experience of Liefeld (I was 11 or 12 reading X-Force). I can't comment on his work now, because I haven't seen picked up a book he's worked on in almost 20 years. In fact, outside of those hilarious "Worst of Rob Liefeld" lists I haven't seen his work at all.

    As for him being a hack - perhaps he is, I can't say. But when he first broke into the industry he wasn't. You can tell from that link I posted how enthusiastic he was about his art and comics altogether. I met him at the San Diego Comic Con two years in a row, 95 and 96 (when it was a much smaller, more intimate venue) and he was very excited to working in the business.

    This is why I think...that the Rob Liefeld we have today is more the fault of Marvel. He was a kid whose work was dynamic but rough around the edges (forgivable at the age he was when he started - not now, x-amount of years later of course). Instead they launched him straight into superstardom and he never had to work at anything. Indeed, laziness bred.

    If Marvel wasn't so desperate to create comic stars - think, at the same time they anointed Jim Lee, Todd Mc, Erik Larsen, ect, many of them deserving of the title, and they threw Leifeld right in there with that lot. Now, if Marvel had made him work and hone his craft instead of making him one of the IT artists, one of two things could have happened: 1. He improves, and becomes worthy of the superstardom he was given or 2. Doesn't improve and get tossed aside, never to be heard from again.

    He has never had any business writing stories. But then, I say that as an adult. At 11 and 12 I had no problem with what he was doing. I had no problem with his art either.



    ...and thanks for your kind word. I'll be at the San Diego Comic Con this week trying to do just that!

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    1. Hello Matthew:- Boy but seeing my name with an exclamation after it makes me nervous. What have I done now?

      I know the work "hack" is a hard one, and I tried to define what I meant by it in a comment above. He's not got the cynicism of the hack, but he does have the habit of perpetually opting for short-cuts. A demi-hack, then? I think your link and your reading of it are absolutely relevant, and they apply to today, as far as I can see, too.

      I agree entirely that the companies have, at various times, had absolutely no desire to do anything but feed off of easy publicity. Look at so many of even today's books and the short-cuts taken by certain creators are shameful. But what sells sells, and relatively folks seems willing, or perhaps able, to say "Make that make sense" or "take a second and third pass at that script". It's not true for everyone, and there's a good number of fine professionals at work. But there's a lot of coasting, and the company which lets the like of Deathstroke #9 go up in the state it's in .... well, I accept that there's such a thing as taste, but there are weaknesses there which could've been dealt with without destroying RL's style.

      At the heart of both our concerns is the long-term decline of the editor in the guise of mentor and gate-keeper. It's been a slow train-run down to where we are. Again, there are editors who clearly do a fine job, but there appear to be few who are teachers as well as line-managers. Three cheers to those who buck the trend. For all that Mr Wacker & I have crossed swords recently, for example, his books tend to very professional. But as you say, the process has been going on for a long time, and the industry has made a rod for its own back.

      Which of course over-simplifies things, and drastically. For example, I've heard from more than a few sources that being a editor today can be an exhausting and often thankless task, particularly at the less exalted levels. Responsibility without power seems to be a common problem, and - nearly - always the pressure to get the fast, significant profit secured.

      I'm over-simplifying there too. It's just, as you say, that IT SEEMS, from what we can gleam, that a long-developing problem has ended up getting worse and worse, and yet, we all often tend to think of editors as being the solution …

      Good luck at San Diego. If I could be there, I'd buy you a drink AND buy a copy of your adventures in the Mexican Land Of The Dead.

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  7. paulhd - bear in mind I'm only speaking from my experience. I could very well be entirely wrong.

    I loved Liefeld's work at 11-12 (thought it was the awesomest ever), but by the time I was 13 I was done with the whole thing.

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    1. Hi Matthew. I think we have a fair overlap of opinion, kids like his work, but I wonder if that was more true in his heyday? I genuinely don't know if he appeals to kids any more, comics have gone in some different places since Young Blood, I just have my own guesses to go on. In other words it could be me who is wrong! I'm with you and the silliness of Marvel's branding exercise of it's talent too, an odd choice for a company that had spent so long claiming it was the characters, not the creators, that were important.
      Good luck at San Diego!

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    2. I love it when promising creators meet on TooBusyThinking. An El Bigote/Paintgirl team-up would surely be a great idea!

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  8. Talking about Rob Liefeld's longevity and staying power is a difficult task as there IS no logical or obvious explanation for it other than it's simplicity and appeal to readers who want a quick buzz. I can only repeat what others pointed out above in saying the name recognition alone is an important factor in why he's still a force in the industry, I would say he does have more of an understanding of how it works and how to promote himself than the critics realise though. His 'Extreme Studios' has kept his portfolio of owned characters in print in one shape or another and he has learned to take a hands-off approach over the years and hire the likes of Alan Moore to develop them further, right now these characters (Prophet, Supreme) are being reworked by other creators and meeting with some success, so in terms of being a shrewd buisinessman RL most certainly qualifies.

    I don't think there's any great secret or hidden technique to his storytelling as all he's doing is serving up lowest denominator Macho/testosterone fare in the mold of Die-Hard and Rambo where the bad guys are there to be shot and killed and the 'hero' is the one justified in doing so - in fact it's his job. To service this formula he uses whatever one-dimensional mercenary/psychopath he has at hand - Deathblow and Cheshire for Grifter and Lobo for Deathstroke for example. Simple basic plotting. And there most definitly is an audience who wants this stuff as I can hold up a number of recent and reasonably succesful books across the marketplace that employ the same combination of simplicity and extreme mindless macho violence - The Boys, Deadpool, Anything with 'Zombies' in it, and much of the new 52 from DC.

    I think what perhaps gets missed out of discussions on his current DC workload is the fact that a lot of DCs relaunched stuff is very deliberatly harking back to that 90s simplicity and style of story & art. Violent and dumbed down heroes have been a staple of the new DC and you'd be hard pressed to see much of a difference between the Teen Titans and Justice League and the team books that were published back then. I am a *huge* Geoff Johns fan but I've been appalled at the diabolical quality of his Justice League, after the current issue I now consider it perhaps the worst team book on the market. This is not the same writer who's elsewhere serving up the quality Green Lantern and Aquaman and almost singlehandedly returned the JSA to a major success.
    No, I think Rob Liefeld has been embraced at DC because he fits right into their current (post-september) profile and targetted audience demographic, and he understands perfectly what that audience wants. Attempting an Analysis his skills and success like you are attempting here has to consider all of these extraneous contributing factors I feel. He may lack any actual talent, but he's not alone right now unfortunatly...


    Apologise if that's all a bit meandering; It's Always a pleasure to read your thoughtful essays here Colin!

    Regards and Best Wishes - Dave Mullen.

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    1. Hello Dave:- Thank you:) The old saying is that a professional who can offer two out of the following three qualities is always likely to find a place in the industry; good - or at least popular - work, prompt work and a helpful manner. In those terms, and from all that we here, there’s no mystery about RL finding work at all. And as you say, and after a disastrous period where what appeared to be lax working habits brought him a less than sterling reputation, RL has knuckled down and hit those deadlines. So more power to him in those areas. After all, he gained a great deal of acclaim and a good many rewards when he was very young. I don’t think that I would have dealt with that very well. Not at all. My only problem is the quality of the storytelling, and his apparent reluctance to develop skills above that of an untutored 10 year where his craft is concerned.

      Except that of course I think that he does some specific skills which inform his comics and which makes them “work” despite the fact that his art and scripting is so poor. But then I’m getting ahead of myself again, and I want to make sure that I express that argument as carefully as I can :) But I will most certainly be touching, and more than touching, on the points that you make – the unarguable points! – about one-dimensional types and violence.

      My disappointment as regards most of the New 52 began with the news of how creators were being treated – news of which was leaking quite abit before the line’s launch – and was compounded when it became obvious how Image-esque so many of the books were. A more cowardly, regressive approach I can’t image, given that fantastical fiction now has a HUGE audience of highly literate young folks. If DC really wanted to target the youth audience they claim, they’d be aiming “upwards” instead of chasing a tiny niche of blokeishness. Yes, there’s no reason why the audience which wants Image-esque books shouldn’t be catered for, though that doesn’t excuse using that audience as an “out” for lazy work. But that larger audience is there waiting for smart comics and the industry rarely seems bothered. To have Liefeld leading three books is just ludicrous. That he’s sold 21 000 on Deathstroke isn’t a sign of success. Surely anyone of quality could match that?

      And as you say, the work by some of the – cough – architects of the New 52 has often been very poor. Geoff Johns IS a prime example of this. I’ve written highly of his work on this blog, as well as noted with disappointment the poverty of his recent scripts for the Justice League and Aquaman.

      I get your point about an analysis of RL and his place in the New 52 needing a multi-factorial approach :) In a way, the various – and thankfully many! – comments here serve as that. I feel that the one thing I can add is a closer look at the detail of his storytelling. I do think that his work has hidden strengths, and that they’re important to recognise as much as his obvious failings.

      If I’m honest, reading these Liefeld’s books has made me think a great deal about certain aspects of his scripts which I think he does rather well. Heresy? I suspect so!

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  9. It is interesting as comments like "dynamic storytelling" and that he "knows how to set up great visual shots" aren't wrong. Those three pages you give are big and bold. They all use essentially a 3 page page (4 if you count a shot of the mountains in Grifter), in which the main protagonist is shown at a bit of an angle. This not only adds an element of dynamism* (and I'd be interested to know what an academic who has studied the theory of art makes of these pages) but must make the resale value of the pages much higher - it can't, after all, be any surprise that we get these big splash (empty) pages in artist-led titles back in the 90s. The fact that it just doesn't look right is probably neither here nor there - why worry about the fact that Zealot is walking down the stairs at an angle (something I've only seen done by someone with the help of a dozen pints of Stella and a supporting wall)?

    Also this wouldn't be a Liefeld thread without the mention of feet, but not eliminating the pedal extremities where you can may have advantages other than they are a bit fiddly and you'd much rather the leg tapered down to a point. As someone who doesn't like wearing shoes** I can confirm that feet do freak out a decent percentage of people (it is apparently called podophobia). Finding an artist with apparently similar proclivities, who is prepared to go with 50% less feet than any other artist, must be a relief for them (foot balm?). There is a market for people who want comics featuring women sporting breasts larger than their own head, so why not cater to the podophobes too.

    Anyway I can't imagine it is a coincidence that these titles are circling the drain,*** sales-wise so it can't hurt to throw in some of the old Rob Liefeld magic, it is likely to bring in the same number of readers it loses - how do you kill that which is already dead? Headshots, usually. Perhaps, some strange kind of alchemy might happen that brings these titles back from the brink, if not then nothing much is lost. The hyperbole is unavoidable - what are they going to say, the truth? OK perhaps nothing and let this slip out quietly in Previews and hope no one notices, but then again PR doctrine is that there is nothing you can't spin to your own advantage (although BP's Gulf disaster pushed the envelope of that one).

    Ah well, taste is subjective and he does have a solid fanbase. The big pity is that these three titles have a lot of potential. Grifter was a solid character in the WildStorm Universe and adding a They Live angle seemed a great way to go. Hawkman is tricky but has been written well and there seemed to a pulpy spin on it. Deathstroke has been a great character and his own comic book series was an excellent attempt at getting under the skin of a morally complex character (I keep meaning to get the rest of the series through eBay one day). There should be a place in the market for these books, with or without RL onboard (and there should be a place in the market for RL if people want to buy his work). I believe your real mission should be explaining why Red Hood and the Outlaws is selling twice what these titles are. Rob Liefeld I can understand but that...

    * One of the secrets to Carlos Ezquerra's character designs is their asymmetry which gives a feeling of movement even when they are standing still (check out Dredd, Johnny Alpha and Durham Red for prime examples). Of course, bringing Carlos up in this thread just feels wrong.

    ** I have my reasons, which include feet that are wider than the widest shoe fittings and being a child who was allergic to heat who was spent the first 3-4 years of their life in a hot country.

    *** Sale #8/10 are: Deathstroke 17/19.7k (#112/117), Hawkman #10 - 16.5/16.4k (#114/135) and Grifter - 14.2/14.3k (#130/151), so he hasn't hurt the sales (Deathstroke #9 was 20.9k, Hawkman #9 was 17.6k and Grifter was 15.2k, so sales actually went up a decent amount, possibly enough to save Deathstroke for the moment).

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    1. Hello Emperor:- If I don’t respond to your much appreciated comments at any point, it’s because I’m keeping my powder dry for the next piece in this “series”. (Makes me sounds terribly pompous, doesn’t it?) I want to try to make my points as clear as possible, so I’m actually quite nervous about discussing them without several late-night re-drafts occurring. RL is such a contentious figure and walking the line between saying “that’s terrible” and noting “but that works because” is quite a challenge.

      So I totally accept the value of what you say about the impact of his designs as well as the ineptness of his panel-to-panel continuity. AND I HAVE A POINT ABOUT THAT THAT I WANT TO DISCUSS BUT I’VE NOT YET GOT IT AS SHARP AS IT SHOULD BE.

      In the best comics-debating fashion, you tempt me, Emperor.

      “Also this wouldn't be a Liefeld thread without the mention of feet … There is a market for people who want comics featuring women sporting breasts larger than their own head, so why not cater to the podophobes too.”

      I have promised myself that I’ll get through these posts without mentioning RL’s problems with feet. It is a terrible temptation though. LOOK AT THOSE *!%£ FEET!

      “Anyway I can't imagine it is a coincidence that these titles are circling the drain,*** sales-wise so it can't hurt to throw in some of the old Rob Liefeld magic, it is likely to bring in the same number of readers it loses - how do you kill that which is already dead?”

      Which just brings out the fundamental incompetence of the New 52. Those books with those teams and those basic set-ups were NEVER going to sell. NEVER. There wasn’t a hope in hell. I wrote it at the time, I’m not being wise after the event. Much of the New 52 was founded in a fundamental ignorance of what comics are and how the superhero book works. I have NO objection to super-books for 10 year olds which are something more daring than Batman Adventure books, though I do love them myself! But there was no method in so much of the New 52. It was ignorance writ large and it’[s got what it deserves. The recent statements by George Perez which indicate that no-one on Superman knows what Grant Morrisons doing with his issues setting up the basics of the new Kal-El say it all really.

      “.. but then again PR doctrine is that there is nothing you can't spin to your own advantage (although BP's Gulf disaster pushed the envelope of that one).”

      I think that if you have a small niche of readers who are in many ways keenly involved in a product, then bad PR can really hurt everything that isn’t a line-leader. Even BMB couldn’t sell Moon Knight, for example, and that’s because it was rubbish.

      “ The big pity is that these three titles have a lot of potential.”

      They do. But then there’s not a character who doesn’t, is there? To waste Hawkman as DC have since the screw up over Hawkworld is a stupid-headed business. It’s such an easy concept to make fly, or so I said, knowing … well, just about nothing. (I know it might be said that Geoff Johns produced a version of Hawkman that sold, but that model was never going to sell with another writer on it and – shock! – it didn’t.)

      cont

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    2. cont

      “I believe your real mission should be explaining why Red Hood and the Outlaws is selling twice what these titles are. Rob Liefeld I can understand but that...”

      Oh gawd. I suppose it would be good for the old analytical cogs to be turned re: that, but the first two issues were so sexist and SO stupid. To go back…

      “One of the secrets to Carlos Ezquerra's character designs is their asymmetry which gives a feeling of movement even when they are standing still (check out Dredd, Johnny Alpha and Durham Red for prime examples). Of course, bringing Carlos up in this thread just feels wrong.”

      Crickey! I’m off to check that!

      “I have my reasons, which include feet that are wider than the widest shoe fittings”

      I knew we had something in common beyond comics!

      “Sale #8/10 are: Deathstroke 17/19.7k (#112/117), Hawkman #10 - 16.5/16.4k (#114/135) and Grifter - 14.2/14.3k (#130/151), so he hasn't hurt the sales (Deathstroke #9 was 20.9k, Hawkman #9 was 17.6k and Grifter was 15.2k, so sales actually went up a decent amount, possibly enough to save Deathstroke for the moment).”

      Yep, but it was a month in which sales actually went up across the board. Relative to everything else, Deathstroke actually fell 10 places. Snakes and sales charts!

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    3. "If I don’t respond to your much appreciated comments at any point, it’s because I’m keeping my powder dry for the next piece in this “series”. (Makes me sounds terribly pompous, doesn’t it?)"

      Not at all, but I would say that as I have used a similar form of words myself, so I would say that ;) I look forward to seeing the next piece.

      "They do. But then there’s not a character who doesn’t, is there?"

      Indeed. I think we've discussed this before, it is down to what the creative team can do with it. Then again some characters are a lot easier to get right - I know quite a few people struggle to get a handle on Superman as he is so powerful, while Deathstroke has a great hook that is shot through with tension. You still need writing chops to pull it off but you'd have to try hard to make the character dull and one-dimensional. Athough in these straitened times I'd wonder where the market is for it, back in the day it managed a good run with Marv Wolfman but, this side of a hyperstar* creative team...

      "Crickey! I’m off to check that!"

      I did want to say something along those lines to Carlos when I met him but didn't as, in my head, it sounded either really obvious or just stupid. I do still think I'm right though. Contrast the designs for the leading superheroes with Dredd - they are very symmetrical (if you overlook Superman's symbol), compared to Dredd's Eagle on one shoulder. Johnny Alpha also has one larger shoulderpad and diagonal bandoleers. This image rather hammers the point home.

      * As we need something above superstar.

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    4. Hello Emperor:- I love the way that the same character can seem quite different even to folks who tend to agree as much I think we do. I could never see the point of Deathstroke, for example, although I think that one of the few good points about Identity Crisis was how he was put across there. (Mind you, I've not read the wretched thing since it came out, so who knows what I'd think now?) But generally, he just seemed to be an assassin without any depth perception and a habit of intimate and despicable congress with very young girls. Seriously. How DC managed to turn him into a hero of sorts after the Terra biz was evidence of business trumping ethics and common sense.

      But then again, when was the last time I cared to read a DS book? Seriously, what do I know?

      And your image? FANTASTIC!!! I'm being won over to your point .... :)

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    5. "I could never see the point of Deathstroke, for example, although I think that one of the few good points about Identity Crisis was how he was put across there."

      I never bothered with IC, the only other well-handled outing for him that I saw in recent years was his appearance in Justice League Elite.

      "Seriously. How DC managed to turn him into a hero of sorts after the Terra biz was evidence of business trumping ethics and common sense."

      That was indeed a creepy development, I've not looked into the background of that idea but I can't quite see how you square that circle.

      The interesting aspects to Deathstroke are that, in a universe of the forever young, he is an older but still active character who has a wife and family, who have suffered because of him. It is the kind of thing that sets up a decent redemption storyline but then there is also the conflict with his past or his nature. For different reasons, it is why I think Baron Zemo (II) has potential to be an interesting character, as he became in Thunderbolts - he is trying to do the right thing but his approach is often rather high-handed and arrogant. The fact that in other titles he is presented as a mad Nazi with a purple sock on his head, doesn't exactly entice me to follow his further adventures. Equally, having Deathstroke portrayed as a killing machine prone to the kinds of fits of graveyard-based moodiness that'd put a Goth to shame isn't parting me from my dosh either.

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    6. Hello Emperor:- You owe it to yourself to read the clustermegafuck that's ID. It becomes more terrible with every passing hour. Nay, verily, every nano-second.

      I agree that the idea of an older man in the uselessly yuf-friendly New DC is friendly. A shame that this new version of the Deathstroke has a dead wife rather than a live one, but then that allows all the boyish angst to smother everything without anyone have to deal with an actual woman and an actual relationship.

      I fear that his crimes appear too great to permit redemption. But a character who can never do so and who is constantly trying to - that's interesting as a hook, no?

      Your closing comment about graveyard-based got-moodiness - there's a terrific comedy that could be written about that.

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  10. I have been thinking a lot about what makes Liefeld work for a lot of people, and had some weird thoughts on the subject late last night while drunk.

    Even back in paleolithic times, artists knew about realistic depictions of things. And yet, one of the greatest civilizations of ancient egypt too what might seem a big step backwards when it came to their art. Perspectives were distorted, you had sideways eyes, a face in profile, shoulders seen from the front and so on. The size of the figures just indicated their social status, and sex were differentiated by color. There a painting was not just a realistic depiction of something, it was a shorthand code that could be understood by people even if they couldn't read.

    I am wondering if maybe Liefeld is not tapping into the same thing here. That maybe he has discovered the hieroglyphics of comics. Maybe it has nothing to do with realism at all, the drawings are visual shorthand for a code comics readers know by heart.

    If you are strong you have big muscles. So Liefield's muscles have muscles.
    Long legs are sexy, so females end up being all legs.
    If you have a gun, you have a mega-huge in! Or dozens.
    If you are acrobatic you jump into impossibly contorted shapes.

    All things are exaggerated, there is not one pouch when there can be dozens, not a simple sword, but at least two, preferably with weird double blades. You have ponytails and hair to show movement lines instead of movement lines.

    Maybe one of the reasons why Liefeld works for so many is because of the symbolic structure of his comics. I dunno...

    I am rambling now, but the one thing I have heard about people that lie Liefeld is that his comics are 'cool'. Maybe he has deciphered the symbolic code for cool, which works as long as you don't look or question too deeply.

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    1. Hello Malin:- I don't think you're off the mark here. At the moment I'm struggling to make my own reading of Liefeld's appeal in the 3 issues I'm discussing not seem either too obvious or too over-complicated. My reading will be different to yours, but not one that's in any way incompatible with yours. I do agree that part - and a great part - of Liefeld's appeal is connected to the way in which he reduces his stories to a sequence of simple, easily-identified types and moments. I wish I knew more about how paleolithic art is supposed to have worked, as far as such can be deduced. It would be fascinating to sit down with One Who Knows and place Liefeld's work before them. Would they recognise the process you suggest? If I just more clout and/or money, I'd like to do exactly that.

      I rarely manage coherent thoughts of any kind on the very few occasions that I drink anything at all. I'm dead impressed by what your mind is capable of after a glass of red or two!

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  11. Thinking of Leifield I think initially he benefited simply from being in the right place at the right time and then ploughing any creativity he had into business and building his bank balance which is, surely, a great example of the American Dream. artistically I don't think Leifield has any real talent anymore than the average teenager who badly copies a comicbook cover and believes that makes him the best artist ever. What he's managed to retain all these years is a personal believe in his worth that he has been able to persudae others to buy in to.

    As to The New 52. DC overstretched Johns and, for me, Didio is to much like Quesada minus the cohesive vision. LIke him or loath him Quesada knows the value of story and his time at Marvel has been about writers and story and he seems to be attempting to find wasy to sell diverse genre. Didio has been about the surface thrill of ideas with to little emphasis on the writing to make it all hold together well. Witness the New 52, a set of fanboy pleasing concepts that won't sell well enough to survive and are being dropped and replaced with similar unsellable titles on a regular basis. Who in their right mind would expect Shade, Frankenstein, Blackhawks or most of the others to survive more than a year. A proper restart would have been a clean, literate relaunch of the main characters and titles, same day digital distribution and alternative kid friendly versions too, ignoring the fanboys howls of protest. Maybe even reformat them into a $6 newstand and supermarket anthology which with Warners support should be workable. Make a go of that and you can look at launching a minority interest imprint to support the more arcane interests of the superhero fanboy and put out limited series and one shots featuring the characters with limited appeal. What business plan puts Frankenstein and The Phantom Stranger at the front of their business plan, it's like McDonalds focussing on their napkins.

    I've pretty much left superhero comics behind apart from the occasional Showcase or Essentials and some odd volumes picked up from the library but I still feel passionately that they have a place, a value and a potential that I hate to see wasted.

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    1. Hello Peter:- I actually have more respect for the work of the very young Liefeld than I do for his older self. After all, he had every excuse in that period for his limited skill set, and he did have energetic qualities which a great many of creators at the time seemed to lack. Who knows what RL might have become if he'd have come under the influence of an editor such as Archie Goodwin. Sadly, that never happened, and so that energy and potential was never developed.

      I know that Paul Cornell speaks very well of Dan Didio, so I'm always torn between the serious problems which have marked much of his reign and the high opinion of certain professionals I admire. I don't quite agree with you that the likesof Frankenstein was doomed to failure. The right creative atmosphere and teams could've sold those books, but the storytelling norms which DC have pushed for sunk much of the New 52 from scratch. Those lofty ideas which the line was promoted with were obvious tosh from the very first full week's set of comics. But then, I suspect that what I'm rambling on with here and your comment about "clean, literate" work overlap.

      The cheap, reader-friendly anthology idea is an interesting one, but it would be expensive to launch and maintain. It would involve patience and investment on a degree that I'm not sure the Big Two are interested in anymore. Or rather, from what we've heard, I'm not sure the paymasters are interested in anymore.

      "but I still feel passionately that they have a place, a value and a potential that I hate to see wasted."

      Hear, hear. Encore. Bravo!

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  12. Back in his heyday, I became interested in Liefeld's work because of something he said in an interview in some comic fan magazine. Paraphrasing, he said that what he liked to produce were "big Lee/Kirby action," which, he implied, wasn't as widespread in comics as you'd think.

    As a fan of big Lee/Kirby action, I thought "hey, yeah, let's give this a try!" Given that comics were about $1.25 per issue at the time, sampling lots of wares was economically viable. Blindly, I subscribed to the newly launched "X-Force." Lo, Mr. Liefeld described his work accurately: Big Action was the order of the day. Large figures engaged in Big Crazy Action filled the pages. I wasn't wild about it, but it wasn't too bad. As my subscription wound up, I noticed how little story was in those pages, and what was there was uninvolving.

    What he does that works is Action Figure Theater: larger-than-life figures crashing together in big cool images, energy in every line. He's always had that ability. On a panel-by-panel basis, it can work. Not that it does, but it can. But the lack of concern for story logic and flow in favor of individual cool images creates problems. Action beats don't link, story doesn't flow. Several panels on a page of this type are tiring. By the time you're up to a full issue of these pages, it can be dispiriting.

    An analogue might be Michael Bay. Check out "PART 7 – 'BAYHEM' AND THE PROBLEM OF SO-CALLED-STYLIZATION" from this post by Film Crit Hulk, where Hulk explains the combination of hyper-action and boredom created by Bay's blockbusters. Hulk explains (pardon the all-caps and missing words): "THERE’S NO REAL WAY TO SAY IT OTHER THAN [BAY'S] ACTION IS JUST PUT TOGETHER ALL WRONG. THERE RARELY CAUSE + EFFECT, THERE NO LINKING, THERE NEVER A SEEMING OBJECTIVE, HE CONSTANTLY INTERRUPTS TENSION WITH BAD JOKES, PEOPLE SCREAM ALL THE TIME, YOU NEVER KNOW WHO ANYONE IS, THE SENSE OF GEOGRAPHY AND SPACE COMPLETELY ABSENT (WHICH MAYBE HIS WORST OFFENDER), AND THE TONE CAN OFTEN FEEL BORDERLINE-BIPOLAR."

    The thing is, I still kinda get the appeal. "Action Figure Theater" has charm, and it's part of the reason we like superhero books. But it's all he's ever had, and he's not that careful in how he does it.

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    1. Hello Harvey:- I have an awful sense that you've just written the next post, but that's fine; I'll just have to raise my game :)

      It is a mystery what the appeal of that Action Figure Theater actually is. Not in the sense of its basics, but in the sense of what can be learned from Liefeld's approach.A heretical suggestion, but I don't think it's a wrong-headed one. The deconstructed comic is often such a dull one. It takes a very gifted creator to be able to take the modern-era norms and make them interesting on a visceral level. For example, Avengers v X-men doesn't generate its energy from the fights, but from the what-if gameplaying with the audience. Who will beat who is the snare, not how cool will the actual fight be. And of course that extends to the more peaceful moments too. There are elements of Liefeld's work that few others do as well. Though I can think of quite literally hundreds of better artists, and artists who I'd prefer to read, I can think of few who have that sense of brute power sprinkled with the strangest kind of excitement. He doesn't deliver on his promise, but it is there. Only the likes of John Romita Jr can eclipse him, but of course, JRJR is a FINE artist and not the poseur that RL is.

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  13. I believe it's been said above, but I do think that the term "Superstar" unfortunately has nothing whatsoever to do with talent.

    In a real sense the Kardashians are "stars." They are wildly popular and even have their own tv shows. This doesn't mean that knowing they are thought of this way doesn't make me wish the world would end just a little bit.

    Liefeld was popular in comics in an insane era when issues sold millions of copies. Like it or not he is all over the comics industry.

    I don't personally enjoy his style at all, and I understand and am largely sympathetic to your sentiment, but I can see how this label could be applied to Liefeld.

    As for "edgy," my only guess would be that it is being used as a synonym for "controversial." The controversy in this case being that so many comics readers can't figure out why he keeps getting work in the industry.

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    1. Hello George:- I couldn't argue on any point other than the fact that I think RL's over the peak of his superstardom. We need a new word for that; Overstar? Oncestar? Sortofhasbeenstar?

      I agree with you about what the word 'edgy' might mean. There's a basic disconnect with common sense if that's so on DC's part, though. Because controversy only sells in the short term, and in a market as small and knowing as today's, I doubt it'll do very much at all. What controversy can RL constantly generate in these books that would actually sell in the longterm?

      Quality would sell. I wonder why folks don't just shoot for quality on these books?

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    2. Oh yes, he is well past his stardom. Though this has just prompted me to think about stars of creative fields of the past. The word "star" itself may be a much more modern phrasing, but would great artists of the past have been considered the equivalent of stars in the same way?

      Would Van Gogh or the like be the stars of their times? I'm not sure of the answer, but I do think that to the extent any artists like that were considered stars, they would (and do) retain those titles long after their deaths.

      I'd much prefer quality as well. I avoid supporting anything that I don't feel is striving for quality (though that's not always easy when buying comics). Certain names on the cover of a comic book amount to plague-warnings as far as I'm concerned.

      Here's hoping that the quality-seekers will eventually out-number (or at least out-buy) the ones who are currently influencing the direction of comics.

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    3. Hello George:- I can think of a great number of artists in the past who had their moment in the limelight and then slid into obscurity. You raise an interesting point by referring to such things. Although the issue is a very complex matter, I suspect that today's media plays a part in keeping the stars of the past in the public eye. That also means that folks of talent who were almost entirely unknown in their day would be far better known today. It's hard to imagine that a modern-era Van Gogh would exist in a state of absolute obscurity.

      In that, I suppose RL is very much a creation of 2012.

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  14. Colin, I feel you make too much of the term "superstar;" it's only slightly less helpful than "award-winning."

    I've puzzled over how Liefeld has endured for 25+ years in the comics field, despite the sheer volume of pundits with no regard for him. I certainly don't think I've ever met a comics fan with a positive opinion of his art (some have said he's a swell person) and there plenty of comics professionals who are upset with him.

    I was within the youth demographic Liefeld's art was meant to appeal to, yet I bailed on X-Force early on. Back then, I couldn't quite verbalize why I soured on X-Force, but gradually I realized I didn't like his art; this was a revelation to me as a comic book critic because I'd never consciously disliked someone's art before! When I came to the internet, I was stunned to discover Liefeld was a subject of mockery both far & wide. It was around then that his third company folded and his freelance work dried up; I thought his career was over.

    And yet... here he is. When you factor in all of his DC freelance work with the currently-running Image titles he owns, his name is bandied about as frequently as Johns or Bendis. By that standard, he is a superstar.

    I've never heard a definition of why Liefeld is so popular that I bought; usually it's said that he appeals to teenagers, yet I was a teenager when I turned on him. What exactly is it about his work that teenagers most enjoy?

    My new theory (coincidentally enough, I was pondering this last week) is that Liefeld's comics are what every teenaged aspiring super hero writer wants to write. I don't mean his artwork - I think we all make too much noise about it - I mean his plotting. When I imagined stories as a teenager they usually involved a collection of "good" codenames versus "bad" codenames. Motivation, setting... it isn't relevant when you're scribbling ideas on looseleaf paper. The difference, of course, is Liefeld scribbles his ideas on high quality paper to an audience of (at peak) millions. Still, perhaps young aspiring creators see his success as an ideal to aim for, that he validates junior high notebook scribbles.

    The alternative is to blame his audience on hipsters.

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    1. Hello Michael:- It's rare that I do this where your good self's concerned, but I think I'm going to disagree with you. I think the use of that word 'superstar' is symptomatic of a culture of bullshit in the comic industry which not only harms the product, and therefore the consumer, but creators and managers too. That's why I attempted - and I do of course accept that it was just an attempt - to take a brief look at the other official explanations of RL's value too. Because the Big Two repeatedly lie not just to us, but to themselves too. Crap is justified in a way which seems to reflect a sincere belief that it's anything but. The New 52, for example, has been an example of one wave of hype after another, and the disjunction between what's being deliberately produced and what's of any value, or commercial worth, is huge. So I believe that the application of 'superstar' stands for a situation in which the emperor's new clothes appear to be both absolutely real and entirely admirable to the royal courtiers. There's a difference between playful hype and flat-out self-deception and there's a great deal of today's comic's culture which better fits the model of the latter rather than the meaning of the former.

      But that's a whole series of points I'm writing about at the moment for elsewhere, including a look at what we know about the Superman office at DC, where it seems that the powers that be have actually rebooted the man of steel without being sure about what Morrison intends for his past or even what his present day character and situation should be. When hype masks competence to that point - because DC shouldn't ever be in that mess - then trouble is more than just afoot.

      I certainly see what you mean that 'superstar' as a measure of whether someone is known in a community. Yet notoriety would surely be a better world, or even fame. Superstar, and this even goes for dictionaries etc, involves a component of skill and achievement.

      But the word, in its own terms, is a fluid one. I see it as symbol, as I said, of a pernicious situation. But in its own terms, you're right; it's just a word :)

      That's a fascinating theory about what RL's appeal might be! He's actually producing the type of story on the page that young lads envisage in their head! It's a wonderful and convincing conceit. And I love the idea of RL having a business card with the line underneath his name that declares "validates junior high notebook scribbles".

      Hipsters? Oh please no! But there certainly are a large number of anything-but-young folks who seem to see an attack on RL as part of a snobbery-promoted plot to take away their right to crap comics. It's the same as seeing fluoride in the water as evidence of communism, I suspect, and equally absurd.

      I wonder, would you be reviewing new adventures of the costumed version of the Shadow if RL had revived him? Could you bear to? I'd certainly love to see what you said :)

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    2. Whatever we may think of Rob Liefeld's talent, his place in comics history is assured; he was one of the Image founders, he had his name attached to books which printed in the millions. Comics culture has begun to forget who Marshall Rogers and Al Williamson were; we may one day forget who Dwayne McDuffie was; we're trying to write Dave Sim out while he's still alive & producing work; however, rejoice! We will always have a chapter in comics history devoted to superstar creator Rob Liefeld.

      I would have some morbid curiosity in seeing anyone tackle the Archie version of the Shadow. However, considering I stuck with Garth Ennis' Shadow for all of one issue, I don't think I would give Liefeld much air time.

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    3. Hello Michael:- Are you ever going to review the Ennis Shadow? I'd love to know what you thought of it beyond pah.

      You're right about RL being a figure who will at least retain his status - as confused as that is - in the culture of comics for a generation or two. I'd not thought of that. There's so much that he's attached to that he is, in effect, a key player despite his own limitations. That's a sobering thought. You're right, Sim is being forgotten even now. His work is too long and challenging, his politics too incorrect. Gosh. Food for thought, Michael. Thank you.

      I've been thinking about how certain work survives and others doesn't today, having put up a piece about the masterpiece that's Jordan and Patterson's Jeff Hawke. It's almost forgotten now in many ways and it's a tragedy, it really is. And in writing about I knew that I'd never be able to find the way to interest very many folks in the topic at all. And yet, it's JEFF HAWKE, for heaven's sake. That's my fault, of course, and it's certainly no fault of those who won't pop in for that post. But if we're talking about achievement, no-one should be concerned with Liefeld and everyone should with Patterson and Jordan.

      In a perfect world blah-blah-blah

      But anyone who still thinks that history eventually passes a fair judgement on who achieved what hasn't read much history ...

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    4. Colin, I think I have to post something about Ennis' Shadow, if only because of a major storytelling gaffe I found.

      Just the other month there was an interesting post about independent comics at the Beat where the author asserted indy comics started with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Kurt Busiek had to step in and assert it really began with Sabre, Elfquest & Cerebus, against much disagreement. It's going to be hard to tell a proper history of the medium so long as we have these biased accounts of what matters, what's important and what's influential.

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    5. Hello Michael:- I can't wait. Your blog is on the feed here, so I'll keep an eye out in the coming weeks and months for that piece. (And when I say that, I mean it too!)

      I can't believe that there could be any argument of where indies began. And of course the argument would have to extend back to the Fourth Kingdom, the Texas books, and then back to the head shop undergrounds and so on.

      Still, as you said, at least everyone knows who Rob Liefeld is.

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  15. To be honest, I think an anthology could work and sell beautifully with a more literate approach to comics with the support of Disney or Warners. The problem is you'd have to sell the parent companies the idea of comics as a viable, moneymaking media with an ability to appeal to a broad range of readers and make money and that would mean coming out of the ghetto, letting go of the sexist, elitest trappings that clothe the superhero industry, not letting them be viewed as just an idea farm for TV and movies and be prepared for more oversight and scrutiny from the parent company. Open the clubhouse to girls and everything? better to stay a big fish in a small pond. Or someone from the growing number of geeks and nerds running such companies to look at the balance sheets and kick the door in at DC or Marvel and drag them kicking and screaming back into the world of mass media. Rant over.

    I do miss the good old days of having the disposable cash and going into the comic shop and having Paul recommend the best of the great stuff that was around then. Remembering the guy he worked for and the opposition across the street and the fabulously eccentric and ocd controlled customers that used to come through there probably is a great graphic novel there and another 10 or 20 years distance and Paul might be able to look back on it and pull something together. Probably still too close at the moment.

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    1. Hello Peter:- Oh, I agree with you that a smart anthology which was well-funded and sold could do very well. And the advantages would be tremendous. The question is, is there the will and incentive to do this? It would take alot of cash and a long-term campaign to work. Profit margins might not be high, or even exist, for quite a while. And the real profit for the companies is licensing. A movie, a game, a pair of underwear; all that generates dosh NOW. Is there the vision to try to create a new, literate audience? There's quiteb rational grounds for running DC and Marvel as they currently are; lots of dosh in the short-run from a mass of product, little need to be concerned about a large amount of investment beyond today's running costs. I so agree with you, but I don't think the industry does.

      It sounds like both your good self and Paul have some heartening memories of that period. Perhaps one day we'll see art come from comics scrumping.

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    2. I do wonder why Marvel or DC have not made more of an effort to reach children, a whole new audience, with something other than mini versions of the usual superheroes. The literate audience you describe, Colin, seems to be served by something like Amulet, but despite great reviews and sales to match, there's no sign that the big 2 have jumped on board. The anthology idea is one I've long prescribed to, but I wonder if webcomics have taken some of the wind out of that idea. Nowadays I think that webcomics with later collections can cover some of that. The two problems with the webcomics is that readers/tablets are too pricey, and not everyone can make money from a webcomics.
      I'm afraid as much as I've considered comics of a more autobio bent (I do love reading them after all) I don't expect my comic shop days to feature if they ever happen. It's not that I still can't find some of it funny, I can see there's a great mix of funny and sad to some of what happened, but mostly it was just crushingly dull and I doubt I'd reach the scathing heights of Clowes or Bagge which is what I'd need to do it justice. Also Seth's Wimbledon Green is such a wonderful work of comic collecting mentality it'd cast a distracting shadow over my shoulder as I worked. Still, never say never, there were a couple of characters that I could easily draw about...

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    3. Hello Paul:- I guess the answer is that the Big Two no longer have the slightest sense that kids comics in the way we're discussing them are part of their mandate. They've specific responsibilities and a narrow niche of a market to deal with. I'm not being snarky about that. I'd imagine a business specialist would suggest that Marvel and DC should focus on what they're good at while making sure they're diversified enough to at least maintain their position. And with so much money coming in from licensing, there's just not the pressure to do anything but what they're doing. Expansion within the existing model appears to be the aim. And that makes sense in a purely profits-next-quarter way. What an arse-stupid way to approach the problem of where the next generations of comics are going to come from it is. But more than sensible in its own way. Let's hope other publishers - with sadly far less muscle - exploit the situation and perhaps carve out the kind of market square which the bean-counters will have cause to regret missing out on.

      I was never meaning to impose the slightest expectation upon your future career :) I still wish there were more smart, everyday autobiographical comics out there. There's a great deal of tummy-button-gazing angstiographies, but there's so much of life that could be captured. A lost modern-day Mass Observation, if you will.

      But let's be honest, if I may, and in 2 words;

      PAINT GIRL!

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  16. As ridiculous a notion as it is, yes, I agree, the Big two just don't care about children. It's at this point I usually fall into a rant about the state of comics, the content of them etc etc blah blah. I'll spare you that. Suffice to say the Big Two don't care about the younger market and are doing very little to broaden comics appeal to the adult market, I'm sure you conclusions are similar to mine.
    My future career? Well of course Paint Girl comes before any angst riddled autobio nonsense!

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    1. Hello Paul:- It IS a ridiculous business. Who else has the potential to on their own create a new generation of comics literate kids? But who cares? They're doing alright, and the thing that a great many folks out in the blogosphere forget is that the folks who own the Big Two are *!$% rolling it. Those who actually work in the industry may not, and it's get worse the further down the totem pole you go. But the lords and masters are doing fine. Copyrights secured, overall profits not just up but sky-high - look at what The Avengers alone has made? So, well, who gives a flying fox?

      Need I say it again?

      PAINT GIRL!!!

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  17. Hello Colin, just popping back on here once again. You know, I'm the guy who praises current Green Arrow, who thinks of Judd Winick's Catwoman as deep and profound and who constantly accuses you of romanticising the past. In a very friendly way, of course.

    Since this is kinda about Hawkman again - I have just now ordered the individual issues of Hawkworld from a fellow in Austria. Thankfully, it's the English version, as German translations are so awkward even nowadays that I'd shutter to think what they would read like on an older comic. I'm very excited to read Hawkworld, you have so wet my appetite.

    What I can't quite believe is you pointing to Twilight as a positive example of challenging fiction in the comments above. I have also recently seen someone claim on another blog that Twilight could bge a model for great female-firendly stories in comics, which really had me wonder if the writer had ever tried to read a little of those novels or dared to watch one of the films. Yeah, there are too many alien ass shots in Red Lanterns and there still is an issue there, but when we look to Stephenie Meyer for either decent writing or feamle role models, God help us. Because, come on, it's not even decent; it's the lowest form of silly Dan Brown style bestseller fiction to the point that I almost wish people were reading nothing at all before exposing themselves to such garbage, especially at a young age where they might actually be influenced by the message that tells girls to be passive, shut up and wait for a handsome guy to take them and do with them as he pleases.
    I know what you're getting at, of course, and you're right about Harry Potter. People might be right about The Hunger Games, I can't comment on those. But I really find this notion ridiculous that there are supposedly all these "literate" young people out there right now, hungering for "sophisticated" entertainment, just because publishers have found a way to sell badly written vampire kitsch with archaic morals to the masses. I'm not sure if it is a great thing that people are willing to read 800 pages if all they are ever exposed to is 800 pages of tosh (the still very charming word which I hope I have now used correctly).

    Also, Rob Liefeld: great analysis of his work, Colin. I'd just like to add that I could nonetheless never be mad at Rob Liefeld. If you should ever have the time, go over to the Word Ballon podcast and listen to the interview he did about his three books in April. I'm not the first one to comment on this, but that guy is just so likeable and enthusiastic. He is so genuinely excited to work on Hawkman and he is so knowledgeable about the history of the character and, really, about comics in general. He is also truly hilarious in explaining the problems he sees in selling classic Hawkman villains to a young audience. I know that this will not garner a favorable response from you and that it is exactly what you go against - but Liefeld imagining selling Hawkman to his video game loving son ("Wow, Dad! Gentleman Ghoooost! I'm gonna put my X Box away right now, I love the top hat and the monocle!") had me laughing on the floor. None of this says anything about his actual talent, of course.

    You know, people have compared Liefeld to Ed Wood. Thing is, I like Ed Wood, at least the romantic version of the Tim Burton film. Love that guy. I'd watch and support every wretched movie by that great a guy. I will not do the same thing with Rob Liefeld comics, but whenever I'll come across a bad drawing of his in the future...I'm gonna think of what a great guy he is and how much fun he had drawing that crap.

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    1. Hello There:- I wasn't trying to present Twilight as anything other than a phenomena which, in its literary form, involves a great deal of reading. It fully establishes that younger - as well as older - readers are up for engaging with fantastical fiction which isn't up for being consumed in a single, empty headed serving. The super-hero comic tends to under-estimate how much effort younger readers will invest, as well as how much complexity they'll be willing to engage with. I think those books I've mention establish that point. As for its quality as a work of fiction, I have absolutely no idea. Vampire fiction in its modern era form is of no interest to me, and I've got other things to read :) So, I'm told that relatively young readers are loosing themselves in that fantasy world. That's the point I'm trying to make. If the quality is so bad that you feel that negates the point I'm making, fine. Then the millions who engage in Harry Potter and Tolkein will make it just as well, I suspect. My argument didn't hinge on Twilight. There is, as you well know, a massive market for fantastical fiction which young people of all ages, from early-readers to adolescents, are involved with. You're focusing on a tree here and I can't grasp the point of us missing the woods for it. I'm told by local librarians that there are prepubescent kids who wouldn't normally be reading who are devouring Twilight. I think that points to a market. Not every book is of the same quality, not every one attracts the same audience. But the audience for the product is massive, and that's what's important. It's literary value, it ethical content doesn't affect what I'm saying a whit. (It sounds, to use a word used by an old English teacher of mine, as if its a perfectly ghastly series. But then most fantasy is regarded as poor by one group or another. If that many people are excited by those books, then I can't help but wish them well.)

      On Rob, we're back on the same point again. I'll try to be clearer. I'm not suggesting that RL's books don't have appeal. I'm not suggesting that there isn't material which different niches of younger readers are attracted to. What I am saying is that the man, for all his enthusiasm, is clearly idle and incompetent. I love the idea of comics for different groups of people, and I've no problem with books for a particular audience of young men at all. But let's have those books produced by folks who can write, and draw, ah?

      I fear you're arguing with me here about something which I've never stated. The man's a poor professional, but if folks like his work, good for them! I couldn't care less. What I could care about is the fact that more readers might be brought into the medium if better work was produced for them. By all means let's have Rob Liefeld comics for his fans. But that's going to be just a few tens of thousands of people. Comics should be looking for more.

      I'm told Liefeld is a lovely chap, though I've seen some rotten things attributed to him in interviews. I've also listened to the Word Balloon interview. But that's talk and I couldn't care less about how charming he is. I'll be impressed when he's worked at life classes for a few years and can handle things like hips, feet and ... well, just about everything.

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    2. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't want to repeat a discussion that apparently you've had enough of already. I just wanted to add - and from the perspective of someone who has not been "burned" by any experience with Liefeld - that his stuff seems so delightfully silly and he seems so genuinely excited about it that I can't imagine holding a grudge.

      I didn't intend to put forth an argument about his work whatsoever, that's why I included the word "crap" above. But then, Ed Wood films are objectively also "crap" and I love my DVD collection boxes of his work.

      I can be really angry about far more capable artists. Frank Miller for example. I fear I will be angry when I see The Dark Knight Rises, just from the little I've read about it so far. I can be so very angry about Stephenie Meyer and really about every kind of art that puts forth dangerous or wrong ideas. Which is why I can understand you being insulted and outraged whenever you discuss torture on this blog.

      But Rob Liefeld? He doesn't insult me. He's doing nothing even remotely serious enough to elicit a serious emotion from me. He's drawing muscles and boobs and guns and he's jumping up and down, screaming: "Hawkman in a gladiator arena! This is the dream of every 9 year old - and I've been 9 years old all my life!"

      I can see where you'd think that maybe I'm contributing to the downfall of the comics industry with my attitude. But whereas most of the time I do care for quality, I think there's a time and a place every once in a while for watching Zombiesaurus vs. Mega-Python III and being thankful for such ridiculous masterpieces to brighten up your day.


      >It's literary value, it ethical content doesn't affect >what I'm saying a whit.

      No, it doesn't affect the argument, of course not. But I'd still disagree with the attitude. I'd hate for people to ONLY watch new volumes of Zombiesaurus vs. Mega-Python all the time and I'd be constantly in their ear about trying more daring work which hopefully would open their eyes about the quality of Zombiesaurus compared to 2001: A Space Odyssey.

      Yes, there is a young audience out there for fantastic adventures that the comics industry fails to effectively target. Of course you're right in that. I'm just afraid I am not as indifferent to what it is that people read - which indeed is just one single tree I spotted and maybe took a little offence to in the whole wood you were describing.

      Which actually brings me to one idea...this is purely a joke, please, don't be offended...but if I were as negative about modern comics as a lot of the online discussion is, I'd propably cynically imagine exectuives at DC going: "Hey, we've got thousands of young people reading abysmal flat fantasy already - and we have at least 52 equally bad comics just waiting for them to be discovered. This should by all means work perfectly, right?"

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    3. Hello There:- No, I took no offense. Yours was a very forceful post and I thought I'd respond with what I thought was an equivilant force. It was meant as nothing more than that, I do assure you.

      I do understand your fury at work which - to use a very untrendy word - offends you. It may well be that it was that which gave your words such force. I have indeed heard dubious things about SM's books, though since I've not read them, I can't comment. Still, my point was just to say that their content wasn't relevant to the point I was making.

      But as I say, I understand your disappointment. After all, I've expressed a similar thing here one or few times.

      And again, I'm not against, as I said, Rob Liefeld comics. I'm against DC inexplicably hiring a man who does such technically poor work. Good luck to RL, and good luck to all who sail with him.

      I certainly don't see anyone -let alone you- undermining the industry by enjoying his books. It's the publishers who are doing that.

      I get your point about wanting folks to at the very least enjoy at least some work which is challenging and admirable. But in order to get them to do so, they have to be hooked on reading in the first case. If SM or indeed RL do that, and it leads to a life of reading, then I'm content. Indeed, I'm content either way. When I was a lad way back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, pretty much all comics and sci-fi and fantasy was held in contempt. By which I mean, every age has its fiction that's disapproved of. That pulp fiction hooked millions of young readers on not just genre, but reading itself. And in a time when fewer and fewer folks actually read, that can only be a good thing.

      One day we'll learn just what was in the mind of DC as it carried through the New 52 project. Some of the decisions seem to be have at least as daft as your suggestion :)

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  18. I'm sure you've read it but I thought I'd flag this up here - an interview with Rob Liefeld at CBR which deals with the reboots discussed here and previously.

    Some bits stand out:

    "I was not aware of any of the previous storylines past issue #1. I just read the premiere issue"

    Quite a startling admission especially as there aren't that many comics to read.

    I am also amused by him bringing in Pike, Jim Lee's take on Deadpool, himself a swipe from Deathstroke. It is enough to make your head spin. ;)

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    1. Hello Emperor:- I believe I've read that interview, and yet returning to follow your kind link, I find that I've blanked out nearly all of what I'd written there.

      Those who wonder why I feel so ... be polite, blogger ... disappointed in both RL's work & sections of DC's editorial staff need only look to the sentence he offers, when the few readers who did read those books are treated with a maximum of contempt. He couldn't even be bothered to read 20 more comics. What a .... polite, blogger, polite ... serious disappointment.

      Oh, well. He's off from one of the titles already. A man in demand, it seems ...

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