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| From The Mighty Thor #154, 1968, by Jack Kirby, Vince Colletta & Stan Lee. |
Reader, please be assured that there's no suggestion being made that today's comics should attempt to replicate the form and content of the books mentioned below. Nor am I trying to suggest that only that which follows is worth reading. But I did feel that a week of negativity ought to be followed by the opposite. As such, the absurd exercise of nailing down just two examples from the careers of characters who've been published for decades promised to be as much fun as such list-making ever can be.
As always, your generous suggestions and civil disagreements would be extremely welcome;
1. Hank Pym
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| The adventures and misadventures of Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne are something we've been discussing recently here at TooBusyThinking. As I've been babbling away about, Tales To Astonish #44 remains one of the most intriguing superhero books there's ever been. Charged up by the presence of what seems to be clearly out-there Pym and a deeply vulnerable and vengeance-driven Van Pym, each of them harrowed by grief and, as a result, falling in love with each other, it's saturated with promise that was never fulfilled. Even now, a reboot which started which the events of TTA#44 and used them to explore these two fractured, fascinating characters would be at the top of my pull list. |
2. Superman
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| I've blogged about Mr Maggin's Last Son Of Krypton before. So perhaps I might quote from a recent Tweet by Mark Waid whose own work will be referenced below, on Maggin's two Superman novels; "They're the pinnacle, the definition of Superman to me." |
4 The Phantom Stranger
6. Wonder Woman
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| Of all the takes on Wonder Woman since, I think Gail Simone and Aaron Lopresti's was the most enjoyable and auspicious. A contentious point, no doubt, but then, it's something I've written about before - here. I will just add here that issues #40 & 41 in particular were tremendously promising, and it's a shame that the company decided to back other, rather dregretable versions of Diana and the Amazons instead |
7. Green Lantern
8. Thor
9. The Legion Of Super-Heroes
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| The earliest days of the Legion, and in particular the marvellously individual approach of artist John Forte, have been discussed here before. Suffice to say, latter attempts to remove every last trace of oddness and daftness from the Legion have stripmined out a huge part of what once made the strip so entertaining and popular. Like the original Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman, the Legion's appeal was enhanced by its often straight-faced absurdity, the removal of which has left what remains often looking both over-serious and yet - still - ridiculous. |
10. The Pulp Heroes Featured In First Wave
11. Spider-Man
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| I said it here, after hundreds and thousands of folks had said it elsewhere, and said it better too. There is no other take on Spider-Man that can stand head-to-toe with the Ditko/Lee version. But then, we all know that ... |
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| And I expressed my adoration of Dan Slott and Ty Templeton's wonderful Spider-Man/Human Torch series over here too. Those who claim that Slott can't write a fine Spider-Man tale are not only avoiding the evidence of his more recent work on the character, but also the entirely adorable Spider Man/Human Torch. |
12. Watchmen
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| After careful consideration, I came to the conclusion that the best example of Watchmen was indeed Watchmen. |
13. Iron Man
And while we're chatting away over nothing of consequence at all, why not visit the TooBusyTalking Tumblr, here ...
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Great observations as usual, I always enjoy reading your blog. Please change Boltinoff to Weisinger in the Superman comments, a memory lapse on your part not a mistake!
ReplyDeleteHello Simayl:- You're too kind. It was indeed a slip of the memory, but that surely stands as a mistake! Thank you for the catch, and for the kind words too. You're an egg :)
DeleteColin, you have picked some amazing books. And I have to say that I agree with you completely about the Phantom Stranger. I also miss Steve Gerber terribly, and I adore the O'Neil/Adams Green Lantern/Green Arrow books, mainly because I find them to be hilarious...at least in hindsight.
ReplyDeleteBut boy, I so hate those snotty Legion teens!
Hello Sally:- I do totally agree that "those Legion teens" are snotty, or at least, most of them were. It's part of what makes those books so fascinating, though I'm of course not suggesting that that's how it seemed in the day. But the sheer, well, snottiness is so overwhelming that it's fascinating. I'd love to write a Legion book about the well-meaning, life-sacrificing super-teens of the future who were also terrible snobs.
DeleteThe GL/GA books do often read as laugh outloud funny. I'll concede that. But they are also energetic and committed and beautifully - of course - illustrated. I'll take that over Rumpish, disconnected and pseudo-grown up everytime :)
As for Mr Gerber, we do miss him. If GL/GA is painfully sincere, Gerber's political work was often sharp and hilarious. There's no-one in the sub-genre doing anything to touch his satire. I wonder whether anyone would be allowed to.
Another wonderful list, Colin. My only real quibble is Dan Slott's Spider-Man, but only because I find his work on the character from "Brand New Day" to now to be unengaging and milquetoast, especially the whole "No one dies!" angle the latter stories took, which read like Slott was trying too hard to reject the juvenile excess of grim'n'gritty only to run to the other extreme of absolutism (and the less said about "Ends of the Earth," the better). The Spider-Man/Human Torch mini is alright, though.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I have a preference for Paul Jenkins and Mark Buckingham's run in Peter Parker: Spider-Man, which took a quirkier, lighthearted tone that still tackled difficult subjects like assisted suicide, grief over the loss of a spouse, and even the question of media influence on children (a 3-parter where a villain's child died trying to imitate the hero's web-swinging). Jenkins' Spider-Man comics have more than a few duds in them, but I think they brought plenty to the table, especially during that period of time when Howard Mackie and John Byrne were shepherding that ill-thought reboot/relaunch.
Hello Andrew:- I have to admit - and to admit again, I fear :) - that I love the Spider-man/Human Torch series. It's such an honest book, and it uses continuity exactly as it should be. It's true to what went before, but never bogged down in it, and the last issue is in many ways the final chapter of the pre-One More Day Spidey, happily married, part of the FF family, rescued from his own past.
DeleteI'm not enjoying the Spider-books at the moment. They've gone from OK to rather obvious and uninvolving, I fear. Perhaps some of that's the remaining disappointment re: Spider-torturer. But regardless, hats off to DS for the likes of SM/HT and She-Hulk.
I've little experience of the Jenkins Spider-Man issues. You certainly make them sound enticing, both because of your enthusiasm and because you're honest and admit that there were duds there too. It's one of those titles that I wish had been collected in a great big, cheap doorstop collection.
The Mackie/Byrne reboot? You know, I'd blanked the very thought of it out of my mind ....
Yeah, I had forgotten about the reboot myself, up until thinking about the context of first reading Jenkins' Spider-Man (his first issue was PP:SM #20, right around when Marvel tried killing off Mary-Jane for a bit).
DeleteA doorstop collection, while a great prospect, is one I can't picture ever happening, since Jenkins always seemed to be playing second fiddle to Mackie or Straczynski, but there are a couple trades I'd recommend, One Small Break (which has two of the stories I referenced above) and Return of the Green Goblin (which has Humberto Ramos on art rather than Buckingham).
I actually hadn't thought of the Spidey/Torch mini as being the "final chapter" of happily married Parker, but it actually becomes better under that interpretation.
Hello Andrew:- Thank you for the recommendations. I certainly will keep an eye out for them.
DeleteAs for SM/HT, it's my own jump-off point for Spidey. There'll be another version of the character that I can really enjoy along sooner or later. But until then, the story of the Spidey that began in Amazing Fantasy #15 ends with the party at the Baxter Building which closes SM/HT. It works well for me :)
I agree, the Jenkins Spider-Man was uneven, but sometimes very special. My favourites were "Heroes Don't Cry" (Peter Parker: Spider-Man#35), with the child whose imaginary friend is Spider-Man and "Snow Day" (Peter Parker: Spider-Man#37), a funny story about Spider-Man fighting Vulture on an extremely cold day.
DeleteHello Michael:- Do you realise how expensive your recommendations are eventually going to prove to be. My return to the Ostrander Spectres, which I always remembered fondly, have seen me looking out for affordable copies of the whole run. I've that Eternals issue you suggested waiting to be read. Now it's Jenkins' Spider-Man, a series I missed out entirely on.
DeleteThank you for your closely targeted recommendations :) At the moment, I've loved everything I've come across from your 'to-buy' lists.
Hi, Colin, another great column. I first read that Thor/Hercules saga in one of the Treasurey editions in the mid-70s. Wasn't until I got the Essential Thor Vol. 2 that I got the complete epic wherein from Journey Into Mystery #114 through The Mighty Thor #136 (heck, until about the conclusion of the first Mangog story in issue 157) Kirby spun one classic interconnected tale after another. Thor's initial clash with and then rescue of Hercules was the highlight, but it was all great and IMO it's even better than his run on the FF, much as I enjoy his best on that as well. Simonson's run was excellent as well; his and Miller & Muzzucchelli's Daredevil were, IMO, the best works to come out of Marvel in the mid-80s by far.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with you on Ditko's run on Spider-Man. As an adolescent, more familiar with Romita's version of Spidey, my initial reaction to Ditko's version was, "ugh, this looks awful, too cartoony!" But eventually I came around and knowing that it was Ditko who did most of the plotting during his run, I believe he created some of the best Spider-Man tales ever, with possibly the greatest blend of drama and humor of any mainstream superhero comic.
Hello Fred:- One of the finest cliffhangers in Marvel history is the one in which Pluto, having taken Hercules as well as his soul, spiels about the fact that no-one would dare try to rescue him. Enter Thor. It's THE defining moment for the character where I'm concerned.
DeleteI find it terribly hard to differentiate between the various books Kirby contributed so very much to in the Sixties. The quality of each of them changed so much and so often that I find it easier to pick specific runs. But I can certainly see why, forced to choose, you'd go for Thor above the FF. I think I'd opt for the FF if for no other reason than there's just one or two Colletta art jobs in the whole run.
I too struggled with Ditko as a kid. I adored John Romita's take because it worked as comfort reading; Parker was adored and successful and yet he still got to feel sorry for himself. That's not to challenge the wonders of JR's art, or to suggest that the stories he were involved with weren't splendid. Nothing of the sort is intended. But the ur-text is the Ditko run. Everything else is at best gravy. I could nominate an Omnibus or four of fine, fine post-Ditko Spider-Man tales. But there's only one Omnibus which I'd opt for if that was the limit of what I could have, and that's the Ditko issues.
A very interesting list, Colin, although I´m not familiar with all your choices. For what it´s worth, mine would definitely include the Broome/Fox/ Infantino Flash, another '60's milestone, Drake´s and Premiani´s Doom patrol, and Lee´s and Kirby´s FF. And though it's generally considered a very minor and dated work, I have a soft spot for Miller´s and Certa's Martian Manhunter. (Joe Certa was a very capable artist unfortunately disregarded nowadays).
ReplyDeleteHello quique:- I wish I'd been clearer in what I wrote in the above. These aren't my favourite comics, but my favourite versions of the characters which appeared in last week's list. If I were to write my favourite 15 characters and runs, I think it would be rather different.
DeleteThe characters and comics which never leave my "best-of" lists are Eisner's Spirit, Ditko & Lee's Spider-Man, Kirby's Fourth World, and Wagner et al's Judge Dredd. (I realise we can argue about whether the Spirit or Dredd are technically superheroes!) Around that core, my taste is constantly changing.
I would say that I entirely share your admiration for the creators you mention. The Silver Age Flash, Doom Patrol and FF runs are - of course - quite brilliant. In fact, your mentioning those Broome/Fox/Infantino Flash tales previously has set me off on a reading binge of the relevant Showcase Presents collections. I have enjoyed them immensely.
I don't know much about the original Martian Manhunter.But given your so-far unquestionable good taste, I shall drag out my unread collection of them and enjoy myself.
Finally, I thought of our correspondence this very morning when I came across a John Forte-drawn 1954 zombie tale. John Forte drawing scary horror tales? Mind you, for all that it's a shock to me - for I don't enough of his history - it's not a bad job at all;
http://unhallowedconsecration.tumblr.com/post/27365984059/menace-9-january-1954-the-walking-dead-by
Great list. Really enjoy them.
ReplyDeleteHenry Pym - I came on board around issue 180 of Avengers so he was a fixture of the team, and I jumped ship long before issue 226 was it, where he disgraces himself. So in that time as Yellowjacket he was a pretty good hero. I loved his costume and yellow and black is a good combo for a superhero in my opinion. Also, I took it for granted at the time, but a husband and wife in the middle of a superteam was something different, and added to the enjoyability of the Avengers in teh run up to issue 200.
Silver Age Superman is astounding, and must count as one of the best revivications of a character ever, but we tend not to think of it in thiose terms. I don't know much about the years before 'The Secrets of Superman's Fortress' but how could anything have had as much invention and warmth and consistency as what followed that?
I really must read my Essentials of Gerber's Defenders, mustn't I. They are sitting there. They sound wonderful, but I might be a little superheroed-out these days!
Maggins' book was in my hand when I was tidying up the other day, but I think I boxed it away somewhere. :-( I'll read it someday.
I was getting Waid's Daredevil for a while, but then without warning they started bringing out an increaased number of them each month and I fell behind, and when I went to read them I found I'd mislaid some of them, so I sorta gave up! Maybe if Marvel had told me it was about to start speeding up? Good comics though.
My problem with the new Phantom Stranger, apart from well, we know what he's about now..., is this take on Judas. As often happens with Johns' stuff, it doesn't question the accepted orthodoxy - in this case of of what motivated Judas. He was a traitor and had to be punished. So it doesn't open up people's thinking on him, or challenge it in any way. Johns often works towards meeting the readers expectations and reassuring them that their lazy assumptions are correct. He does that again and again in his scripts. That's the very opposite of what a good writer should be doing.
Maybe that Judas then wanders the Earth as a pretentious superhero-in-a-trilby is a bit challenging, though. :-)
(Yes, maybe they'll do something with this consolingly unquestioning take on Judas later. Won't we have egg on our faces when the Spider-torturer and rule-shredding, rights-ignoring James Gordon and the murdering/raping Amazons all turn out to be first chapters in profoundly moral epics that question every lazy morally-wanting assumption of our age?)
Hello Figserello:- Now look, whippersnapper. Stop what you're doing, draw up a comfy seat and read Last Son Of Krypton. Of course it's dated. What hasn't? But you'll find Moore and Morrison there, just as you'll find a fun story and a terrific shot at making the DCU a satisfying place to read about in novels too.
DeleteAnd you've not read Gerber's Head saga????
Growing old and older yet is an endlessly baffling business, because the oldster assumes that their reference points must be commonly known. At the same time, they tend to forget that they're out of touch with other folks' experiences. You've recommended a host of important, interesting books to me, and yet whenever I see someone saying they've not read LSOK, it's as if they've never heard the Beatles or something!!
Growing old, Mr F. It distorts the mind and brings to end any effort to protractedly pogo.
I know what you mean about the frequency of the Waid DD's. It's something which became all the more confusing with the crossovers he's been involved with. I'm tending towards the hardback collections these days, simply because I know I'm going to buy them and money's tight, as it is for most of us. I feel like a traitor for not supporting the comic every month, but needs compel ...
I share your concern about the whole Judas riff. The last thing the world needs is a super-book which features a Jewish character who loved money more than Jesus, who he betrayed. It's just not a place a go even as the starting point of a story with incredibly good intentions. Of course, DC might pull it off, though the omens aren't good. And there is an out in the book's backstory; the folks who curse "Judas" aren't God, but a cabal of wizards. That does leave wiggle room in the whole business. It might not be divine justice in ANY sense, Judas might not be anything of the sort, and so on. This poor soul's sense of who he is could even be the creation of the cabal.
But I'd not have started there in the first place. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
I would love to find that Super-Judas, Spider-Torturer and Bloke-Slaughtering Amazons ended up being feints along the path of deeply moral tales. I'd love to find that President Cap is really a really smart satire instead of at best a really stupid one. But I'll still stubbornly stamp my foot and point out to the heavens - the heavens, I say! - that those comics shouldn't have been making those arguments without a sense that there were alternate readings being pushed at the same time.
I shall stubbornly stamp my feet, but not for so long. The same old knees which prohibit pogoing grumble even at foot stomping, I fear ...
Wasn't there a Speedball drawn by Ditko in the 90s? I remember a comicshop guy of great taste (he was the first to point me towards Kirby's Fourth World) tell me that they were enjoyable.
ReplyDeleteYes, the early Wonder Woman collections are creeping up my must-buy lists. I wonder have they done anything to obviate all the problems with the new approach yet? Probably not.
Perhaps I have a very earnest streak in me, but I admire the hell out of the way GL/GA tackled the issues of its day. I often argue for comics being more engaged with the politics and social issues of their time. AvX would seem to have absolutely nothing to say about the extremely 'interesting' times we live in, so what's the point?
I really don't understand why comics companies don't include more politics. The two blockbusting sellers of the last decade were Civil War, which attempted in some measure to convert the tensions of its day into a superhero slugfest, and the Obama issue of Spider-man. People want to see their world in the pages of a superhero comic. It's true companies don't include much of the times in comics these days, but you made a good point elsewhere that the best comics usually do - whether that's all the topical references in early Fantastic Four, the New Gods references to the Vietnam War and the Hippies, Superman disarming fascist war-mongers, Moore's Swamp Thing and Watchmen dealing with ...everything, etc
I'm an old-school conspiracy theorist myself, and am convinced that there are corporate pressures dissuading the creators from being too questioning of our 'context'.
Just to segue into your praise of Slott, there was quite a bit of engagement with the world in the first half of Avengers the Initiative. Even his Secret Invasion issues slyly unpicked some of the dreadful 'they are different so we hate them' undercurrents of the whole concept. eg African Americans featured very strongly in A:I compared to Bendis' white, blue-eyed cast from the 60s. But the second half of A:I, after Slott left, was business as usual, continuity and brand-maintenance nonsense.
Hello Figsreallo:- I have no idea of what happened to Speedball between first appearance and Penance. I have a vague memory of him being the Beast Boy of the New Warriors, all youth and stupid wisecracks, but beyond that ...
DeleteI never could cope with the fact that the folks at Marvel either didn't know what a speedball was or thought it was funny to name a superhero after one ...
I'm with you on the GLA/GA politics, although I do recognise Sally's point about the books being funny too. Still, a super-book that's not absurd has missed one central part of the sub-genre's appeal. As for politics being dealt with in an admirable, consistent way in the super-book today, I can only think of Kieron Gillen and Gail Simone's work at the moment. I'm sure I've missed lots of laudable examples out. Mea culpe.
The daft thing about ignoring politics is that they'll still appear in the work. In fact the more politics are avoided, the more political the work tends to end up being. And as you say, the best of the sub-genre tends to be fired by their presence. I may not, for example, have shared Ditko's drift towards Randism in the mid-Sixties, but it makes his Parker all the more interesting.
Thank you for noting that I do speak well of Slott despite THAT moment. I still get nutters turning up accusing me of slandering the man and his work. His Avengers: Initiative was a project which I dipped a toe into and always meant to go back and read properly. I'll keep my eye out for affordable issues.
"Beast Boy of the New Warriors" pretty well sums up the character during much of Nicieza's run on the series. Especially since, until Rage joins, he's the youngest member at 15. Though there was also the occasional moment where it would be showcased how potentially Robbie was the most powerful member of the team (except for possibly Firestar). 90s New Warriors manages to hold up nearly as well as my teen-age enjoyment of the series remembers...
DeleteThough I am a tiny bit annoyed with Fabian for leaving out Speedball's super-powered cat. I mean c'mon super-powered cats are the best thing!
Hello lurkerwithout:- I'm certainly with you on the issue f super-powered cats, and find it explicable that aany writer would turn down the chance to feature one of Streaky's fellows. (Although I can't speak for the New Warriors, which I simply know next to nothing about, but modern-era comic's inability to incorporate the idea of the superpet is a very bad thing indeed!!!!)
DeleteI think the fact that you've the objectivity to admit to a change in taste since you were a nipper, and the enthusiasm to say that you can still enjoy TNW, makes me even keener to find out what I missed.
The daft thing about ignoring politics is that they'll still appear in the work. In fact the more politics are avoided, the more political the work tends to end up being.
DeleteMeant to get back to this earlier, but had to say how true this is. The owner of the Captain Comics website recently bugged out about how much dissing we were doing of Marvel and DC books that we didn't really support, whereas we all read good GNs that needed more discussion and support, but we didn't talk about them much.
It occurred to me that you have to be very clever to talk about a work where a fine craftsman like Alan Moore, or Peter Bagge or Eddie Cambell is in complete control of every line and every word and manage to say exactly what they want to say, whatever you might think of it. Even something like Alan Moore's Neonomicon, which in some ways is a thoroughly despicable work, is just expressing exactly what he wants it to express, whatever we might think of it.
The dissonance between what many monthly comicbooks think they are doing, or say they are doing, or what most readers believe they are doing and what's actually there on the page is just too big a target for casual comicbook posters like me to ignore.
Thank you for noting that I do speak well of Slott despite THAT moment.
Case in point! I like much of Slott's work too. I stayed away from his Spider-man because it was clear that BND was an admission that they had nothing new to do with the character and they were resetting him in order to start telling all the same old stories again. And I don't consider the mixing and matching of properties (Wolverine/Spider-man in the FF, Wolverine/Spider-man in the Avengers) that we have now as genuine innovation.
I'm happy to accept that Slott didn't mean to produce a comic that reads like an attempt to make Dick Cheney feel good about his warcrimes, and leave it at that. I'll certainly be keeping a little eye on his future work once he wraps up his Spider-man.
Hello figserello:- I do understand the confusion about why folks get involved far more with the Big Two's books - which they often don't like - rather than work that they feel more positively about from elsewhere. And yet that does ignore that one of the most beguiling qualities of shared universe books is that they do work as conversation starters. The very fact of getting involved with work which has so much history associated with it inevitably inspires the reader to start asking questions. The Big Two seem to love this process when it keeps folks buying their books and love it just a little less when it brings with it the expression of any disenchantment.
DeleteNone of which is intended to supplant your analysis. The intention is to compliment it, I do assure you.
(I'm keenly aware of that imbalance between super-books and the rest of the comics world on TooBusy. I've tended to keep the blog for superheroes simply because that's a clear focus for the writing practise. But I'll be adding a weekly non-superbook column from this Sunday onwards. Your comment about the challenges of work by the likes of Moore and Bagge has merely increased my anxiety :) )
I'm with you on the looking-forward-to-what-comes-next where Mr Slott's work is concerned. The books getting creakier and creakier at the moment, and it all feels very unlike Mr Slott. I'm curious to see what comes next.
"After careful consideration, I came to the conclusion that the best example of Watchmen was indeed Watchmen."
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you spent hours agonizing over this one Colin. A pure-hearted, if truly brave, assertion. You cheeky bastard. ;)
"Where Fraction and Larroca's later achievements on the book were often undermined by a glacial pace of storytelling combined with the lack of a complelling focus to their work, The Five Nightmares was concise, fast-moving, smart-minded and, ultimately, great fun."
Ain't that the truth? I believe I've waxed less poetical about this particular topics in your comments section before, but "The Five Nightmares" really is one of the most impressive superhero stories of the last decade or so and a hell of a way to kick off a run. It was impressive enough that I stuck through about 30 more issues of Fraction/Larroca, because surely if they could write a story like that something truly impressive was coming down the road... right.
And as always, not enough positive words can be said about what Waid and co are doing on Daredevil. I hope that at least one person in the Bullpen is taking notes.
Hello Adam:- I'll have you know that I'm not cheeky, just highly logical. Watchmen is the best version of Watchmen. (Other versions of Watchmen are apparently available. They are not to be trusted.)
DeleteThe Five Nightmares IS a cool story, isn't it? I was staggered to note how few REALLY good runs of Iron Man there have been, yet even if there was a great deal more competition, that one would still shine. And I too stuck with the comic right to the end of the second Omnibus - expensive Omnibus - before giving up. Very pretty, incredibly slow, just not worth the effort. Which is a shame, because TFN proves that the lads could do good ...
I'm looking forward to the Marvel Now books. I suspect they'll prove quite an embarrassment to DC. They may be excellent, I hope they are, but whatever else, they seem to have been created in a way which doesn't scream Corporate Comics quite so shrilly. Yet if they could build on the hopeful signs being shown in the likes of Hawkeye, JIM, Wolverine & The X-Men etc, then there could be alot to smile about.
Do I expect that? Well, I certainly hope :)
"The Five Nightmares IS a cool story, isn't it?"
DeleteIt really is. After burning out on the rest of the run, I went back and read it because I was interested to see if it actually held up or if I was looking back on it nostalgically. And it was still impressive the first time around. When I was finished, I said to myself: "this really is everything I want from an Iron Man story." And apparently it was everything that Fraction and Larroca wanted in one too, because they then spent the rest of their issues treading exactly the same thematic ground that they already covered in "Nightmares," only much more slowly and much less compellingly.
"I was staggered to note how few REALLY good runs of Iron Man there have been, yet even if there was a great deal more competition, that one would still shine."
It's very true. A few years ago I was wondering why I never really cared for "Iron Man" and read a selection of stories from different time periods. There weren't very many that stood out. Honestly I barely remember most of them. Which is a shame, because I think that "Iron Man" is almost the perfect case study in how a character accrued decades worth of character that make him one of the more interesting comic book protagonists.
As disappointed as I was with the post "Five Nightmares" Fraction/Larocca title, I do think that the one thing Fraction always got right was how to make a compelling characterization of Tony Stark. They found the middle ground that encapsulated his likability, intelligence, and charisma without shying away from the fact that he's also a selfish prick, and still made him a compelling lead. It wasn't the portrayal of Tony that I felt disappointed by, so much as the later plots he was involved in.
Hello Adam:- I did as you did and returned to the Five Nightmares. It does indeed still stand up, and stand out from the chasing pack. I have no idea why Iron Man has ended up with relatively few great runs. He's always seemed to be a leading light, and yet his comic has rarely been brilliant. I'm fond of the first years of the strip in the early years of Marvel, for example, and yet even there I'd be pushed to nominate a classic episode beyond the origin, and much of my fondness for that relates to its curiosity value as red-Baiting.
DeleteYour point about the character having benefitted from the mass of experiences which continuity piles up is a fine one. There's so much in his back-story which is waiting to be used.
But not Teen Tony ....
Hello Colin, feels like quite a while since I posted here!
ReplyDelete"Even now, a reboot which started which the events of TTA#44 and used them to explore these two fractured, fascinating characters would be at the top of my pull list."
You're in luck. There was a one-shot towards the end of last year called 'Avengers Origins: Ant Man' that dealt with exactly what you've described. Out of the frankly woeful selection of comics that was the Avengers Origins series it was by far the best and actually kindled a previously non-existent desire to see Ant-Man and Wasp stories. Sadly it was all too briefly over but if you do manage to get hold of a copy you wont regret it!
Hello Ed:- I thought you'd escaped! But just when it seemed that was so, a list drags you back in again.
DeleteAnd what a fantastic prospect you bring to my attention. I had no idea such a beast existed. Rest assured that I'll hunt said book down, and thanks very much for the nudge in its direction :)
I am one of the aforementioned devotees of the original New Warriors series as rendered by Fabian Nicieza and Mark Bagley (and later Darick Robertson), which I maintain was one of the finest series Marvel was publishing at the time. While a bit dated and didactic in retrospect, the series was aces as far as characterization was concerned; it was truly remarkable how Nicieza and Bagley were able to take C-list superheroes and invest them with personalities and backgrounds that made far more compelling than their run-of-the-mil origins may have suggested. For instance, in the case of Speedball we were presented with a character who matured during Nicieza's stewardship from a callow, constantly chattering hero in the Spider-Man mold to a caring, considerate teammate who had an entertaining big brother/little brother relationship with Nova and one of the more (only?) convincing interracial friendships with Rage. It was a series that dealt adroitly (if, again, a bit heavy-handedly) with heavy social issues like domestic violence, parental divorce, and the destruction of the environment while telling slam-bang stories. For that reason alone, I'll never forgive Mark Millar for the damage he did to the team's legacy with his ill-considered "Civil War," and thereby leading to the regrettable bit of business that was Penance. But for one brief moment there, Speedball was one of my favorite Marvel Universe characters - he even had a fun and unique power of absorbing and converting kinetic energy that was often used to great effect in the aforementioned New Warriors series. So I have convinced you to pick up the trade of those first several issues yet? Hopefully I've convinced you that they're well worth the try! ;-)
DeleteHello Anthonmy:- Bless you for knowing that I wasn't being in any way snarky about the New Warriors. I did miss out on the book, I was largely absent from the super-book during that period, and I am interested in knowing what I've missed.
DeleteI certainly like the idea of C-List characters being taken and made something of. I doubt it would be possible for any but A-list creators to do that now, and the likes of BMB with Moon Knight have actually failed to be able to float even a single character in today's market.
I'd certainly forgotten Rage, whose character I enjoyed during his brief visits to the Avengers.
Most of all, I'm grateful to you for just expressing that Speedball was such a personal favourite. To me, he's nothing but the Ditko misfire and Penance, and that's not because I don't like what came between, but because I never experienced it. Your enthusiasm is infectious and I shall keep my eye open for one of the early trades. Even if all I see is something of why you liked the character so, it will have been worth it.
As for the decision which Marvel took to use the New Warriors as they did, I thought it was imbecilic even though I had - as you know - little knowledge of them at all. It was obvious they were being thrown away to generate fan-shock, and it was obvious that it was all stunt and little story. It must have been a frustrating business, to be a NW fan and being faced with that.
Well, I never read the brief Ditko run and avoided when possible much of the Penance doggerel, so my interpretation of Speedball remains mostly "pure". Having said that, I do recall fondly an early story of the Abnett-Lanning run on Nova that guest-starred ex-Warriors teammate Justice and featured a bittersweet moment where Penance appeared and Richard Rider had to confront his feelings of remorse and guilt over having been away in space while one of his best friends was going through his physical and emotional torment. It almost redeemed the entire mishegas for me - but of course I say "almost" because the idea was entirely wrong-headed from its inception onwards.
ReplyDeleteI quite agree that Marvel's decision to dispatch of the New Warriors in the manner that they did was imbecilic to say the least, as it frittered away what had been a perfectly solid Teen Titans analogue. The crucial difference between the two teen teams was that the Warriors didn't rely on the gimmick of having its young members serve as junior analogues of the varsity team that is the Avengers (not to speak ill of the Young Avengers, you understand). Up until that point, there hadn't been (to my knowledge anyway) a similar assemblange of young, disassociated heroes like the New Warriors, and because none of the characters had been prominently featured in Marvel comics for many years up until that point it gave the creators on the title free reign to play around with them without having to conform overmuch to rigid, codified interpretations. Incidentially, among my favorite character re-interpretations was the old Lee-Kirby FF villain the Mad Thinker, who under Nicieza's pen became less a supervillain and more of a somewhat addled, eccentric genius who engaged the Warriors in battle not because he had any particular beef with them but rather because he was trying to get the young heroes to reach their full potential. Oh, but not let me give too much away...!
By the way, I didn't detect any snark in your intial comments, so consider yourself absolved as far as I'm concerned! ;-)
P.S. Another favorite character-revitalizing run on a character I could care less about otherwise was Peter David's lengthy tenure on the Hulk. While David's Hulk run certainly had valleys as prominent as its peaks, on the whole it was a series that you could usually count on to provide sharp and funny dialogue, lovely art (particularly when Dale Keown was penciling - whatever happened to him, by the way) and an interesting blend of superheroics and socially charged engagements with the "real world." Every other run on the title since seems like a pale shadow in comparison. But of course, your mileage may vary!
Hello Anthony:- Your absolution is much appreciated, and especially so since you suggest that it was unnecessary too :)
DeleteI can only add - since I of course haven't read the issues in anything other than a most cursory fashion - that you've certainly made me more than just slightly - :) - interested in the New Warriors.
But the Peter David Hulk run I can at least comment upon, having followed it month after month during periods when it was often the often Marvel Comics that could be relied upon to be readable. More than readable, of course, it was of course often brilliant. David's style can at times be too sentimental for me, but that's an issue of taste and I don't mean it as an "objective" judgment. Yet his plotting and scripting were both so successful during the period that I bought issue after issue. It's a run which is, for all the respect given to it, criminally under-rated, and I regard it is one of the 25 greatest achievements of Marvel's history. David took a moribund book and piloted through some of the most challenging editorial and market situations of the era, and always came out ahead. So here I can say without fear of contradiction that I do share your regard for that run.
Ahhh....Wonder Woman and the LSH; how I ADORE them, my long-time faves, alongside Fantastic Four. I dont think even on their worst issues I could ever dislike them. From the delightful if force-fed feminist/bondage themes that defined early WW to Simone's last few issues, Diana has always been the best there is. John Forte's fretful absurdity has never clearly been defined in any marketable sense, and nor should it - a universe with planets of giant children and flying Moby Dick space whales is more than capable of sustaining its madself, and dosent need the careless, off-kilter convention that Keith Giffen felt his 80s LSH warranted.
ReplyDeleteGot the entire set of that Spidey/Human Torch mini-series a few months back. Surprisingly solid story-telling, with remarkably consistent continuity [for the most part]. Current writers at Marvel should take heed...
That Elliot S. Maggin Superman novel...I still have that somewhere in my collection [currently being moved thirty miles away to my new house, which Im hoping to move into early October] tho I never got round to reading it fully. What amused and shocked me back in the early 80s was skimming thru the book and reading the words 'fart/farted' in it, thinking thar was quite adult for a novel about Superman. Scandalous me!
Hello Karl:- Well, first off I'm amazed that I missed THAT reference in The Last Son Of Krypton. Having been as scatalogically minded as any other bloke during my mid-adolescence, I'd have thought I've had picked up on that. And there was me thinking I'd read that book word for word.
DeleteStill, good excuse to read it again.
Much of what you say I struggle to add to because it's quite plainly 100% correct. Oh, alright then, it matches my own entirely subjective views. I will say I have quite a degree of fondness for Giffen's 5YL Legion, and actually developed quite alot of that when writing about the run on this blog. Going back made me see - in terms of my taste - how much of what was there was enjoyable.
Perhaps if there'd been more space-whales and the like in with all that darkness, I might now regard it as one of my favourite runs. I do like my comics with the absurdity intact if not never changing. That's why I enjoyed seeing Doop in the lastest Wolverine And The X-Men; that's an example of epic silliness mixed in with a fascinating tale. Huzzah!
I have a suspicion that Marvel's storytelling is taking a turn for the better at the moment. The Everything Burns crossover and the Asgard books it appears in, Hawkeye, Wolverine And The X-Men .... These are actually top-notch titles. There may be a quiet revolution occuring, you never know.
Hi Colin, another interesting list-plus. Of the work named, that I've read, there's nothing I'd argue with. I could name other favourites featuring some of these characters, such as the Roy Thomas/John Buscema Thor, and the Pasko/Swan Superman, but I'm very happy with your choices.
ReplyDeleteYou do remind me, though, that I never did read the second Superman novel (Miracle Monday!). To eBay!
Hello Martin:- I struggled with the Thomas/Buscema Thor; it felt rather continuity-heavy for my own taste. But I wouldn't ever deny it was good work. As for the Pasko/Swan Superman; I loved it then and I love it now. My feeling was that it was still grounded in the 60s Superman, which meant that it wasn't a different paradigm that ought to mentioned seperately from the Camelot-era books. I felt the same about Alan Moore's Superman Tales and indeed Grant Morrison's Absolute too; they were terrific, and yet they were part of a tradition established in ther 60s. I realise that the same might be said of the Maggin novels, but I've always thought they were something somewhat different, a genuine and admirable attempt to spin a smart novel out of the character without losing the comic's roots. If I'd've been going for something entirely different from the 60s, then I guess the Siegel/Shuster original would've been my choice.
DeleteI didn't find the second ES!M novel was in any way the equal of the first. But that doesn't mean it's not well worth reading. And then, there's the unpublished Krypto novel too, if you've not come across it, which I guess you probably have;
http://supermanthrutheages.com/starwinds-howl/howl.php
Gosh, never heard of the Krypton story, Colin - and me a handsome hound of steel. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteHello Martin:- Now that is the first time I've ever been able to point out something about that period to the Master. And what better than a life-history of Krypto.
DeleteI can rest. My work is done.
Fine list, Colin.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Iron Man's shallow pool of memorable moments, I heartily recommend Adam Warren's "Iron Man: Hypervelocity". Few Iron Man stories are as passionate about pushing the character towards cutting-edge tech concepts. It's wild stuff, and much bolder than the usual fare featuring Stark.
I personally consider it one of the 2-3 best Iron Man tales ever, shoulder-to-shoulder with "Demon in a Bottle" and superior to the technically-solid but emotionally-cold "Extremis".
Hello Leslie:- Thank you for your generous words. As for Hypervelocity, I fear I've never heard of it, but then, that's of course one of the great privileges of having a blog. I know know Hypervelocity exists, and I fully intend to check it out :)You make a compelling case, and that's especially so given that I quite agree with you about Extremis.
DeleteIn defence of Penance...
ReplyDeleteDo you think there's something SO ridiculous about the character concept that renders the whole debacle worthwhile? Some would say superhero comics are still mired in the grim'n'gritty age unwiottingly inspired by Miller and Moore, so the idea of a hero coverd in spiked fetish gear who literally feeds off his own pain is, to my way of thinking, essentially taking the piss. And maybe serves to make creators and readers think, hang on, shouldn't these heroes be having rather more fun?
That said, I never actually read 'Penance: Relentless', so I can't say how seriously the creators of that series played the idea.
However, I did read and rather enjoy the various 'Front Line' tie in series' to the Big Marvel Event books (routinely better than the Event books proper). Many of these had short Robbie Baldwin/Speedball/Penance stories running through them, and I think these are amongst the best mainstream comics dealing with the classic story arc of 'bumbling teen hero makes a major mistake and tries to cope with the guilt' - even though this involved the mental breakdown that led to the Penance persona.
So, for good Speedball comics (beyond Nicieza New Warriors), I recommend Civil War: Frontline and especially Fear Itself: Front Line
Note: I'm not calling for more Penance comics, but I've followed the blog enoguh to know that you can't resist a contrary opinion coming at you, Colin!
Hello alexf;- An honest contrary opinion expressed in a civil fashion is always welcome at TooBusyThinking :)
DeleteYou know, I can see the grounds for thinking of Penance as satire. And there's a lovely argument to be made there. My own opinion - and that's all it is - is that if it were satire, it was terribly done. Not only wasn't there the slightest sign that it was meant as satire, but there was also the lack of joy which good satire tends to carry with it. Of course, I'm not suggesting that Penance would be a joyous character. But the act of ripping the *"!$ out of the rump ought to be a joyous business on one level or another.
I suppose if it was intended as satire, it was being produced by folks who didn't want its target to know. Which is a truly disturbing thought .....
I've heard alot of folks speak highly of the Front Line books. I know my local library has a tpb. I'll see if its available on my next visit. I've read perhaps a quarter of the first run of its issues, and I must say I didn't enjoy them. Yet I do have a record of, shall we say, being wrong. So I'll go see how wrong I was.
I'd love to discover I've been wrong. I always enjoy finding that I can be enthusiastic rather than grumpy. I will give those books a go when they cross my path :)