tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post2064898647867146344..comments2024-02-22T02:31:34.108+00:00Comments on Too Busy Thinking About My Comics: The Modesty Of The Thing, The Rise Of The Real Marvel Zombies & Mark Millar's Social Conscience: Some Thoughts Inspired By Fantastic Four # 129 by Roy Thomas, John Buscema & Joe SinnotUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-39540666535287421352011-07-18T22:50:49.256+01:002011-07-18T22:50:49.256+01:00Hello Mr H:- "Augh, I know, I'm putting a...Hello Mr H:- "Augh, I know, I'm putting all this effort in trying to justify something fundamentally nonsensical. But hey, that's comics commentary!"<br /><br />Oh, TELL me about it :)<br /><br />From my perspective, Kurt Busiek's vision of the MU and the DCU is really a reflection of the Sixties, when DC had little that wasn't whitebread and entirely conventional in its spandex, while Marvel has strips such as Spider-Man, the Hulk and the X-Men, which were all about outsiders facing often-hostile societies. Since then, the potential for easy conflict and jeopardy in having a more confrontational and less trusting citizenry has very much become common currency. It's a problem for books like the X-Men, which rely on its characters being outsiders, because if everyone is distrusted, then what's the point of a franchise like the X-Men. Yet the Heroic Age books which began last year were originally based on a far more optimistic vision of the MU. Ah, well. It changes, it really does.<br /><br />I think you're right that Ben must be self-conscious and desirous of his privacy. I just think, as we've discussed, that there'd alot more respect and tolerance from at least some of those he bumps into.<br /><br />Until two tons of walking rock DOES bump into them ....Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-56724431532189242102011-07-18T05:29:11.564+01:002011-07-18T05:29:11.564+01:00I remember in the surprisingly good, yet also some...I remember in the surprisingly good, yet also somewhat disappointing JLA/Avengers crossover- when the JLA went to Marvel Earth the first time, they found the human population far more hostile to Earth's heroes than their equivalent on DC Earth. <br /><br />I regrettably have not spent as much time in the MU as I have in the DCU yet- and I haven't even spent that much time there yet- but if so, that could be an interesting angle. Are people just crueler there? Marvels did a pretty great job explaining how normal people saw the metahumans, but it's an interesting question that they didn't really explore in the book.<br /><br />But yeah, given how much the Thing's been on tv saving the world, it is surprising that he'd be that self-conscious. I do know celebrities get uncomfortable, and I could see how a guy like him might conflate the two. Given the circus roots of superheroes anyway (Superman's outfit is pretty much a circus strongman's), I could imagine Ben might see people as looking at him because he's freakish rather than because he's a hero.<br />Augh, I know, I'm putting all this effort in trying to justify something fundamentally nonsensical. But hey, that's comics commentary!Historymanhttp://chevycomics.tumblr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-68033765209352334552011-07-15T14:20:39.846+01:002011-07-15T14:20:39.846+01:00Hello Historyman:- I hope I've caught the sens...Hello Historyman:- I hope I've caught the sense of what you're arguing in what I'm about to write, but I don't think that I'm diagreeing with you when it comes to folks coming face to face with circumstances which they're not prepared with. In terms of the real world, I'd like to think that we would all be prepared as we grow to face difference and retain respect and display good manners towards it. After all, the gawpers of the MU aren't always just responding in shock; very often they're just incredibly, incredibly rude.<br /><br />Both that rudeness and that ability to be shocked in the MU would surely have bee modified in the more than 10 years between The Thing's first appearance and the panels placed above. For one Thing, the Thing would be a celebrity, and one associated with saving the world over and over again. On the one hand, of course folks do gawp after celebrities, but Ben Grimm would be the equivalent of a man who has fought and sacrificed for the greater good. In that, he'd surely be shown more respect and granted more public space. He'd surely not be shocking to see, given how often he would've been in the public eye, in the media, and given how folks would surely half-expect to see him or others akin to him in the context of NYC. <br /><br />And of course, the Marvel Universe would surely be far more used to difference than ours. The MU was by then full up with 100s of folks who bore the mark of mutation, injury or non-human origin. By now that figure must be in the millions. And so again, I suspect that the relationship between Ben and the public would be influenced by that too. <br /><br />So, I think your point about stopping and staring is a fair one. But I suspect that few would cower and few would gawp. A great many would probably applaud or thank him for his actions. A few bigots might decide to make some form of public protest. But a blanket response of folks in the way the comics showed us?<br /><br />I don't buy it. But then, it's a comic :) It's just my opinion, and I wouldn't want to suggest that my interpretation is better than yours at all. I just see this one differently. <br /><br />All the best, HM!Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-34209632319754419642011-07-14T05:39:42.147+01:002011-07-14T05:39:42.147+01:00Something else to be taken into account is how com...Something else to be taken into account is how comics have an amazing capacity to make things seem more or less real, scary, or revolting, completely based on how the artist draws them. <br />A human burn victim, for example, could be drawn in a comic as something as simple as a normal human head with some squiggly lines, or as grotesque as Two-Face or worse. But it's one thing to see it in print, quite another thing to see in person. As uncomfortable as it is to admit it, most of us, seeing someone deformed, disfigured, disabled, can't help but stare or awkwardly not-stare, which is even worse. I've heard many people with disabilities say that children, while more insensitive ("Mommy! Why does THAT MAN only have ONE LEG?!") are also far more honest and it's a lot more humane to simply explain the facts to them than to try to ignore them.<br />So what I'm trying to not-offensively say is that, as liberal and tolerant as we think we are, it's very difficult to not have an impulsive, visceral reaction to seeing someone different. And there really is a huge difference between looking at a comic book page and saying, "eh, what's he worried about, it's just his face" and seeing a giant rock monster on the street and not being able to contain a feeling of "oh dear God what is that?" <br />Comic book people are drawn as abstractions, but I assume they don't see the world they live in as an abstraction. Though that is a good question- do they see superheroes wearing costumes as we see real-life-people in costume, as somewhat lackluster, or are they as impressive to them as they are to us when we read them? They don't see Grimm as a bunch of orange squares like we do, they see him as a mass of constantly-moving rock that is also a HUMAN! Who WOULDN'T stop and stare? <br /><br />I feel like an ass for writing this, and I'm sure it could be phrased way better, but I do think it has to be said. HIstorymanhttp://chevycomics.tumblr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-9420454848682259872011-04-28T19:57:35.554+01:002011-04-28T19:57:35.554+01:00Hello Charles:- I think that comparison between su...Hello Charles:- I think that comparison between super-heroes and Supes is an apt one, as of course it would be, being that you made it! Yet I do wonder if celebrity in the music and film worlds wouldn't be a more realistic model, with the Big Three of the Avengers having the status of a Paul McCartney or a Meryl Streep, the youngest X-Men carrying the status of a just-signed teen-band playing a sequence of school dining rooms in the hope of gathering a fan-base, and figures like Hawkman possessing the following of an old but very admired boxer. These strata would to a degree overlap, but not as a huge monolithic class. And the problem, as you indeed say, is that the superhero classes are monolithic, meaning that the give the appearance of working as a single unit rather than a series of overlapping interests.<br /><br />Your point about the super-villains is similarly splendid. Yet putting characters together creates stories, and making them likeable and even heroic is the closest thing to rags to riches that many comic books ever see. It's not easy to make some of those rogues manage to be fascinating over a two-issue arc, but put them all together bickering and scheming and abusing their systems and there's more story than a writer can have time to tell, especially with the amount of story-content often developed per issue these days.<br /><br />There ARE bits in Identity Crisis which are CHILLING, such as the villains chatting about their careers on the satellite, and touching in a perverse way, such as you mention. If only the main plot, both offensive and implausible, had been as good as the informing details ...Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-45974885810826661192011-04-27T23:13:55.089+01:002011-04-27T23:13:55.089+01:00That seems to be the problem - everyone wants to s...That seems to be the problem - everyone wants to see them hanging out, it's profitable to see them hanging out, so everyone gets to meet everyone and the inevitable occurs. It leads to the very odd thing of mainstream Marvel & DC not looking <i>that</i> dissimilar to the supes in The Boys (in the sense of a seperate, elite class who don't live next to 'little people' rather than the orgy part).<br /><br />Odd thing is, super<i>villains</i> get the same class thing too in a lot of stories, because villains are shown going to bars, hanging out with each other and having professional ties (the classic Rogues Gallery in the Flash have done this since the early Wally West days IIRC), living in the same 'hood in AC... except they get <i>multiple</i> classes, the apex villains like Luthor are clearly an elite, the minions and gimmick-based threats are working-class (and Astro City explicitly had the supervillains are working class and interknit in The Tarnished Angel). That's an odd thing. The villains get to be closer to the reader than the heroes - possibly because we want to see the heroes succeed/be the heroes, whereas if we're reading a villain story we want to be sympathetic on some level? Of course villains who became really sympathetic end up becoming heroes and then up they go...<br /><br />(One of the good bits in the flawed Identity Crisis is that the Calculator, who has become an 'upper-middle class' villain, is going out of his way to get extra work for a failing Captain Boomerang because he used to know him when he ran around with buttons on his chest).<br /><br />- Charles RBAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-73337808208235665892011-04-27T17:30:18.864+01:002011-04-27T17:30:18.864+01:00Hello Charles:- Thank you for the nudge for me to ...Hello Charles:- Thank you for the nudge for me to finish reading the Mark Waid run of the FF. The first "value-priced" issue was one of my favourite comics ever, but I lost something of my enthusiasm as the run progressed. I must be off to Marvel Digital and read through as much as is there. For the touches informing Ben's situation and personality which you describe are fascinating.<br /><br />The whole question of a superhero class is odd, isn't it? Astro City is an excellent example of how to provide a community which isn't a unfied class, although the superhumans of AC are still something of a class. It's hard to imagine the coming generations won't start to merge together.<br /><br />But perhaps the truth lies in part in the fact that the line-wide crossover is one of the few dead-cert money-spinners for the Big Two. I only offer this as a hypothesis, but it may be that keeping all the pieces on the board in a clear and predictable form leads to things become less complicated than they might otherwise be.<br /><br />Of course, the other problem is that it pays, both commercially and in story-terms, to have characters closely involved with each other. Spider-Man has to be in the Avengers because Spidey sells and Spidey's fun. And so he becomes another one of an army of superheroes who live and fight together.Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-24647011517240318842011-04-27T03:28:52.962+01:002011-04-27T03:28:52.962+01:00re Ben's alienation: one thing Mark Waid touch...re Ben's alienation: one thing Mark Waid touched on once or twice in his FF run is that Ben may be famous, successful, beloved et al as the Thing, but he can't ever go back to being <i>Ben Grimm</i>. His entire pre-Thing life is over; there was a rather nice detail that he is physically incapable of being a pilot anymore, except on specially modified planes and even there he had to relearn how to use <i>his own hands.</i> There's some alienation details and tragedy he can still have, even now, that the other three can't. <br /><br />re the superheroes-as-class: it just occured to me. As you say, ALL superheroes are presented as being friends except for the really messed-up ones and we go along with it. But, well, <i>why</i> would they? If we look at them as a class, or look at them as outcasts who've all gotten together to be mates on shared outcastness, surely you'd get superheroes that are just tolerated (60s and 70s Spider-Mans had scenes where the more 'adult' heroes finding him a bit of a loudmouth and too impulsive) or even disliked. You'd get a bunch of heroes having a beer and then one groans "oh god, don't look know, it's Moon Knight" and everyone tries to avoid talking to him. Astro City pulls this off quite well, Crackerjack is disliked by pretty much everyone and Beauty is considered a bit off-putting and the 'working class' heroes have a different bar to the 'middle class' ones that are more likely to take on a sidekick. But people seem less willing to do that at DC and Marvel.<br /><br /><br />- Charles RBAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-28484422841197241452011-04-26T22:07:40.377+01:002011-04-26T22:07:40.377+01:00Hello Brian:- thank you for generous offer, which ...Hello Brian:- thank you for generous offer, which is much appreciated here in the newly-freezing east of England. I actually took your advice and ordered a copy of the book already, though I found it on Amazon.co.uk under the SOS title. I'm told that it will be here by the 18th of next month. Ah, well, something to live for :)<br /><br />Nothing fetishistic in looking for a familiar edition. One of the worst aspects of modern pop culture is the idea that a product's worth is all about the object itself and nothing about how its presented. While I use MP3 constantly, vinyl is still my ideal, and I'm putting off the world of kindle because I so love not just text, but the physical aspect of BOOKS, and specific editions of them too.<br /><br />I went back and had a look at few Ditko JJJ's. I think you're right to suspect that SD had him down as a petty demagogue. When JJJ thinks he's winning, he's shown as smarmy and pathetic. When he's off on a great speech, there's a terrible SD contempt for the blowhard in some of the panels. I'm considering sitting down and trying to "read" SD's Spider-Man without noting Stan Lee's text one of these Sunday afternoons. Not as an insult to Mr Lee, but just to see whether I can spot an divergence in intent between the SD and SL versions of particular tales. Not as a pretend-scholar, mind you, but just as a way of bringing just a slither of unfamiliarity to these well-thumbed textsColin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-41194467292626578592011-04-26T20:13:31.966+01:002011-04-26T20:13:31.966+01:00Hello Colin,
The British title of the Eric Frank ...Hello Colin,<br /><br />The British title of the Eric Frank Russell was "The Star Watchers," I believe. It was one of the books that influenced me most while I was growing up. A few years ago I got my own copy of it, and then, in an odd, fetishistic way, looked for exactly the edition I'd checked out of the library when I first read it, which is something I never do. I'm not sure if I still have my spare copy, but, if so, I'd be pleased to send it to you.<br /><br />JJJ was never written as a full-on Hitler figure, but I think Ditko did draw him that way at times, as witness the panel you quote. I don't know it's terribly significant, just Ditko being Ditko.Briannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-37655500471708533472011-04-24T19:14:31.984+01:002011-04-24T19:14:31.984+01:00cont;
”Fascinating to think of superhero solidari...cont;<br /><br />”Fascinating to think of superhero solidarity as leading to civil war. Have you seen Alan Moore's proposal for Twilight of the Superheroes?”<br /><br />Oh, absolutely. Of course, I suspect that the MU’s own war would ultimately be between typical humans and superhumans, and I think the problem would inevitably be social and economic. The next generation of superhumans will have unbelievable power and little knowledge of the conditions which inspired their parents and teachers. Such an elite will inevitably monopolise power, and not through energy bolts and flying pants, but through their ability to dominate the job market, to network and influence the powers that be.<br /><br />”Changing the subject, I think you're quite right about the Spirit being Eisner's best work. While I like "Contract with God" quite a lot, it would never have put Eisner on the map. It's not quite as common these days, but one often used to see people who had been brilliant as "popular entertainers" renounce it in later life in favor of their new seriousness and respectability. Imagine Robin Williams being uncomfortable with having been a comedian instead of the dramatic actor he is now (purely as a hypothetical example, since I don't know that he would ever really say that).”<br /><br />It’s true that folks seem often to have an accurate idea of what they’re good at. I assume that might seem to be so because they do have an accurate idea of what they want to do. I too prefer Williams as a comedian, but looking back to his prime, all I see now is a man on the edge of harming himself terribly. Better a few dud movies, I suppose, that another rick’n’comedy casualty. That’s me digressing there! Thank you for saying you saw some value in my argument about WE. I do appreciate that. <br /><br />”People do get most enthusiastic about what they've worked on most recently, don't they? When Bob Dylan brought out "Nashville Skyline," he thought it was the best thing he'd ever done.”<br /><br />And there’s a case for Nashville Skyline being both the most disappointing record ever AND the most necessary deflation of a myth too, isn’t there? In the end, the only opinion that matters is Dylans, I guess, although he’ll not be telling us about that! If he was happy with it, and if he still is, then it did its job as an album. Me, I think it’s terrible!<br /><br />I hope the evening is treating you kindly. Thank you for your ideas, and I’ll certainly go track down that Russell novel :)Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-40259686043597938262011-04-24T19:13:59.390+01:002011-04-24T19:13:59.390+01:00Hello Brian;- I think you’re absolutely right to p...Hello Brian;- I think you’re absolutely right to point out that there was a solid of spine of NYC “secular Jewish” humanism underpinning the Marvel Revolution of the Sixties. My memory tells me that Jacobs and Jones had some characteristically grounded things to say about that in “The Great Comic Book Heroes” and I think I may go see if I can find that section for some bedtime reading tonight. Of all the comic book histories, theirs is the one that I return to the most.<br /><br />Does JJJ remind you of Hitler? I can absolutely see why you might feel so, but I always thought that he was a rather realistic character in the context of super-hero comics, in that he could be a mean and selfish so-and-so, but that he wasn’t evil so much as profoundly selfish and vain. But now you’ve got me worried. Am I far, far too soft on JJJ? Ah, well, back to the drawing board, or at least the Lee/Ditko issues of Spidey …<br /><br />”Speaking of Lee and Kirby, I'd argue that a lot of the Fantastic Four and the X-Men came from Eric Frank Russell's Sentinels from Space. I actually bought my first issue of Fantastic Four (issue 5, introducing Doctor Doom) precisely because the cover showed a scene taken from Russell's novel. Sentinels from Space was about mutants who'd gotten powers by being irradiated during space flight. The mutants were all single-powered, and there was an attempt to create prejudice against them, for example using the word "skewboys." Kirby was the science fiction reader of the two, and I suspect he was the one who borrowed the ideas.”<br /><br />That’s fascinating. All I know of Mr Russell’s work is WASP, which I actually haveon the bookshelf by my side of the bed in the bright yellow dustjacket of the Gollancz reissue in the nineties. WASP is so dense with ideas that I find it completely believable that he could be so influential. I’ll hop over to Amazon and see if Sentinels From Space is in print and affordable. <br /><br />cont;Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-53288569689381785132011-04-24T02:42:23.844+01:002011-04-24T02:42:23.844+01:00Hello Colin,
Some very interesting observations. ...Hello Colin,<br /><br />Some very interesting observations. I suppose this is an obvious remark, but I suspect that a great deal of the move away from isolation has to do with the circumstances of the people working on the comics, particularly regarding anti-Semitism. When Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were in their prime, it was not a good time to be Jewish, as witness the fact that they felt they had to change their names, just as Al Capp did. It's difficult to think of their work (including the Thing) without being reminded of that, just as it's difficult to see Ditko's J. Jonah Jameson and not think of Hitler. There are a lot of other things going on, of course.<br /><br />Speaking of Lee and Kirby, I'd argue that a lot of the Fantastic Four and the X-Men came from Eric Frank Russell's Sentinels from Space. I actually bought my first issue of Fantastic Four (issue 5, introducing Doctor Doom) precisely because the cover showed a scene taken from Russell's novel. Sentinels from Space was about mutants who'd gotten powers by being irradiated during space flight. The mutants were all single-powered, and there was an attempt to create prejudice against them, for example using the word "skewboys." Kirby was the science fiction reader of the two, and I suspect he was the one who borrowed the ideas.<br /><br />Fascinating to think of superhero solidarity as leading to civil war. Have you seen Alan Moore's proposal for Twilight of the Superheroes?<br /><br />Changing the subject, I think you're quite right about the Spirit being Eisner's best work. While I like "Contract with God" quite a lot, it would never have put Eisner on the map. It's not quite as common these days, but one often used to see people who had been brilliant as "popular entertainers" renounce it in later life in favor of their new seriousness and respectability. Imagine Robin Williamson being uncomfortable with having been a comedian instead of the dramatic actor he is now (purely as a hypothetical example, since I don't know that he would ever really say that). <br /><br />People do get most enthusiastic about what they've worked on most recently, don't they? When Bob Dylan brought out "Nashville Skyline," he thought it was the best thing he'd ever done.Briannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-45405880157250675782011-04-22T21:00:19.379+01:002011-04-22T21:00:19.379+01:00cont;
We might disagree, in the sense of this fri...cont;<br /><br />We might disagree, in the sense of this friendly debate, about how alienated and unhappy Ben might be, but I don’t disagree that he’d feel loss, and a great deal of it at times. As I wrote;<br /><br />“ … he'll undoubtedly regret, and at times with some measure of genuine heart-break, the loss of his old body and the capacities it brought with it, both physically and socially, but that's not the same thing at all as his being portrayed as distraught at his otherness.”<br /><br />In the end, it’s all a question of how we as individuals want to see the balance between Ben’s sorrow and Ben’s resilience being established. I think you might suspect that he’d be more distraught than I do, and that’s a perfectly understandable POV. I think that he’s had at least a dozen years of his situation to learn to cope with it, and Ben’s a tough man. I suspect he’s learned to largely cope, but, as I said, that doesn’t mean an absence of sorrow and regret. From the little I had to master of the victims of comparable sexual dysfunctions from my time teaching psychology, I understand that there’s a good chance of the afflicted individual coming to grips with much of their loss. (That’s not to belittle any such loss or the effort required to respond to the challenges posed by it.) I just think that, in the end, Ben Grimm is a strong man supported by a family and community which loves him, by which I mean, I really do think that with time he learned to carry that weight. <br /><br />But the loss of anonymity and privacy, of autonomy and a full range of human choices; those aspects could still be used to help create a tragic aspect to The Thing. <br /><br />Thanks for your words. I’ve enjoyed responding to them as the night comes down over here in the summery east of England.Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-5062155357175273152011-04-22T20:59:34.512+01:002011-04-22T20:59:34.512+01:00Hello JRC:- thank you for your kind words, and I’m...Hello JRC:- thank you for your kind words, and I’m always pleased to be presented with “a couple of counter-arguments”; any blogger who leaves their comments open and doesn’t welcome such is surely following the wrong hobby :)<br /><br />”In the MU the regular humans still have to worry about their lives and world being lost because of all the mega-events that happen on a weekly basis. Even though the heroes protect them, it's still shown often enough that regular folks would rather do without all of it. You could argue that Ben is actually a good example of what happens to normal humans in such a world, and that itself would make him more sympathetic; he's suffered the loss of his average-ness, and just 'lucked out' by giving himself over to the hero lifestyle, and being part of the most well regarded super team in the Marvel world.”<br /><br />It’s an interesting point that you raise. I think it’s quite possible that a combination of Ben’s unhappy fate and his everyman status would indeed endear to the public, because he would carry the sense of being a typical, down-to-earth bloke who suffered just as so many citizens of the MU suffer. This would be a fine argument to lay beside the ones I made for Ben being most probably well-thought of the people of the MU, or at least not seen as an example of the “other”, the threateningly different almost-person.<br /><br />“His other option would be self-imposed exile from the family/community most likely to embrace his difference without question.”<br /><br />I think that’s always part of Ben’s appeal, and you’re right to bring the point up. Ben doesn’t really have anywhere else to go beyond the FF, or at least, he didn’t really have in the early days of the FF. He has little of his old family and friends still around, and Richard’s extended family was his only home. Yet for a good time now, that’s not been true. Ever since Engelhart almost had him join the West Coast Avengers, Ben has been an obviously “transferable asset” in the MU. Add to that the money and the status as the friendship nexus of the superhero community emphasized by Dan Slott and Ben has the freedom to go pretty much where he chooses. Then add to that the fact that the modern-era would offer Ben the option of celebrity and a great deal of very lucrative work too. He’s not alone or isolated anymore, regardless of how he feels about his disfigurement, which again uncuts to a degree the possibility of him coming across as convincingly alienated.<br /><br />”Second, as good a job as you did illustrating The Thing's acceptance of his state, I can't ever believe he can truly get past all his loss. I didn't see it noted in the piece or comments, but it has been implied that Ben either doesn't have sex organs anymore, or they're basically useless due to his 'skin condition'. He either can't find a sex partner, is impotent, or a eunuch. In any case, that is something so isolating I don't think it'd ever leave one's mind, especially for a character who is mostly shown to be a positively portrayed "mans' man."”<br /><br />I’m not sure we’re as far away from each other as it might appear here. <br /><br />contColin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-69182657864812745172011-04-22T20:34:25.229+01:002011-04-22T20:34:25.229+01:00Hello Darren:- that's gracious of you to say s...Hello Darren:- that's gracious of you to say so. I didn't see a single thing of my arguments there, but what I read certainly made me think again about the whole business of the secret identity. Seriously, I thought it was a real eye-opener, pulling together information from a variety of different sources to make a specific point. I have an awful idea that I might quite like to riff off of what you've written, but I'll of course get in touch if that urge threatens to barge into my queue of pieces to get down.<br /><br />"The appeal of superheroes isn’t just that they do impossible things, it is also the fact that they are ordinary people doing extraordinary things. The secret identity represents the “human” element of the “superhuman”, the part that resembles you and I."<br /><br />I can see exactly why you pointed me in the direction of that piece. Our two pieces may not be making the same point, but they do dovetail productively. And I too miss the loss of the private individual and the secret identity.Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-18703924741545913702011-04-22T18:38:16.396+01:002011-04-22T18:38:16.396+01:00I enjoyed this piece, and I agree with the ideas y...I enjoyed this piece, and I agree with the ideas you've presented, but I'll toss out a couple counter-arguments just for fun:<br /><br />In the MU the regular humans still have to worry about their lives and world being lost because of all the mega-events that happen on a weekly basis. Even though the heroes protect them, it's still shown often enough that regular folks would rather do without all of it. <br />You could argue that Ben is actually a good example of what happens to normal humans in such a world, and that itself would make him more sympathetic; he's suffered the loss of his average-ness, and just 'lucked out' by giving himself over to the hero lifestyle, and being part of the most well regarded super team in the Marvel world. His other option would be self-imposed exile from the family/community most likely to embrace his difference without question.<br /><br />Second, as good a job as you did illustrating The Thing's acceptance of his state, I can't ever believe he can truly get past all his loss. I didn't see it noted in the piece or comments, but it has been implied that Ben either doesn't have sex organs anymore, or they're basically useless due to his 'skin condition'. He either can't find a sex partner, is impotent, or a eunuch. In any case, that is something so isolating I don't think it'd ever leave one's mind, especially for a character who is mostly shown to be a positively portrayed "mans' man."JRChttp://www.onewordlong.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-12573546841036666662011-04-22T13:24:23.148+01:002011-04-22T13:24:23.148+01:00Actually, re-reading it there, I discover that I h...Actually, re-reading it there, I discover that I had, in fact, already found your rather wonderful blog even at that stage. It's somewhat hard to see, because the blog doesn't highlight links, but it's in the third-to-last paragraph.Darrenhttp://m0vie.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-15895793092878518662011-04-22T12:36:41.863+01:002011-04-22T12:36:41.863+01:00Hello Darren:- I really couldn't have put what...Hello Darren:- I really couldn't have put what I most love about blogging than how you expressed yourself in your first paragraph. Of course, you have your own blog where such civility and curiousity is very much the order of the day :)<br /><br />I shall be heading off to check out your piece post-haste, sir. Thank you for the link!Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-75433389082266199152011-04-22T11:54:01.846+01:002011-04-22T11:54:01.846+01:00@ Colin: Thank you for your kind words and respons...@ Colin: Thank you for your kind words and response, as always. I enjoy debating with you because it never feels like a "competition" or anything so vulgar where one opinion must win out, but a situation where both of us are just trying to articulate our own points clearly.<br /><br />I've dug up the post. It was one of those that I wrote for the comic book site I occasionally write for in my "spare, spare" time, as it were:<br />http://comicbuzz.com/i-am-iron-man-secret-identity-crisis<br /><br /><br />Being honest, the post could do with some "bulking up" and revision, but it articulates a few of the idle thoughts I've had about modern superheroes - and wondering whether the trend towards abolishing or deconstructing (and the fact that some publishers feel the need to offer a "reconstruction" or unnecessarily contrived explanations for) secret identities belies an insecurity and uncertainty about the concept.Darrenhttp://m0vie.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-44237943243425547562011-04-22T00:00:11.478+01:002011-04-22T00:00:11.478+01:00Hello Mikesensei:- that's a really good point,...Hello Mikesensei:- that's a really good point, if I may say so, it really is. There IS a great deal of the pre-Lee Revolution DC about Marvel today. The difference of course, as you imply with your comment about folks jumping from one superteam to another, is the sheer number and organisation of this new complacent class. They're actually terrifyingly well-organised, almost entirely sanctioned by the state and, without meaning to be, inevitably a negative force on general social mobility and oppurtunity. I can't help but feel that if I were in the MU, I'd be on the streets protesting, and that's not something that I tend to do, I promise you! And if I'd be protesting, you can bet alot of others would be taking far more extreme action. Not because superheroes fight in the street, a la Civil War, but because super-heroes effectively rule the society quite seperate from the democratic process.<br /><br />I too have a hope that we'll see from somewhere an understanding of this situation and the return of the superhero as a genuingly well-thought out representative of the aliented, the oppressed and the dreamy-minded just-abit-fed-up folks of both our nations.<br /><br />But there are some very fine writers at DC and Marvel. Cornell, Simone, Gillen, Fraction and so on; I suspect that more and more of these issues will get touched upon and, to a greater or lesser degree, dealt with. Writers that good don't miss the point, they just pick their moment. Indeed, there's some very good comics being put out now which challenge the "smug and parent-like" air you mention. The Secret Six, for one, has a very different view of the DCU than is standard-issue ....Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-11862425337861427632011-04-21T23:18:19.459+01:002011-04-21T23:18:19.459+01:00I'm enjoying the commentary as well as your es...I'm enjoying the commentary as well as your essay here (as I usually do). Among many interesting things, this jumped out at me...<br /><br />"Once these bright and shiny characters were symbols of adolescence and non-conformity, yet now they're actually our parents."<br /><br />...because the same thing happened to the DC heroes of the 40s (and their silver-age reboots) by the early 60s, which opened a door for Stan Lee and Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko to create the Marvel Age in the first place. I'm enjoying a few current Marvel titles sporatically, but must admit I do find the current portrayal of most all the heroes in the MU to be members of of the same superior caste, regularly trading memberships in each other's teams and so on, to be tiresome, if not alienating. The storytelling styles are worlds apart, but the MU of today is at least as smug and "parent-like" as any DC comic from the 50s and 60s--comics to which the MU was created to be, at least partly, an antidote. One wonders if a young Stan Lee is out there in web-comicsland or in a film-script class, getting ready to bring us a modern, alienated superhero. I don't doubt it can be done.<br /><br />-mikesenseiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-35091752464571147192011-04-21T16:06:22.567+01:002011-04-21T16:06:22.567+01:00cont:- Of course, counter-pointed to this is the g...cont:- Of course, counter-pointed to this is the gradual establishment of sub-cultures – often substantial in size – which give non-conformists a sense of alternative behaviour, plus the heartening rise of social norms and activities which run in parallel to those of what might be called the mainstream. <br /><br />I guess that my experience is that its all more complex than we were both discussing, and that although the non-conformist might have it in some ways easier, their situation remains on the whole one where access to opportunity can be limited for all but those who can really nail the skills/connections/qualifications. <br /><br />But as I say, that might just be worrying :)<br /><br />”I agree smart-ass bookworm Peter Parker in secondary school will still get hassle, but ... would be more likely to have a steady job and earn more money than the rest of his class.”<br /><br />Absolutely! Yet giving Pete three beautiful potential lovers and having him share a house with his own super-team hardly leaves him a representative of the disposed :)<br /><br />(And, again, perhaps, the fact that we use this as a measure of success plays into the point you sort of implied about changing societal values .... we all grow up taught we're going to be special or famous, so why would Superman pretend to be boring old Clark Kent these days when he could be Superman all the time?)<br /><br />I will hunt your piece out. I do think that Booster Gold would be a far more typical figure in the “real” world than he is the DCU. A problem with superhero comics is that they tend to rely on something other, shall we say, than a normal distribution of altruism!Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-67283007842860971992011-04-21T16:05:56.139+01:002011-04-21T16:05:56.139+01:00Hello Darren:-
”And regarding Spider-Man, I thin...Hello Darren:- <br /><br />”And regarding Spider-Man, I think you're entirely right about secondary school (which is why I think Ultimate Spider-Man does so well to keep Peter there), but I do think that once you get past that (as Peter did during Stan Lee's tenure), the outside world today is far more friendly to those with a niche or a geek leaning than it might have been years ago. Both from a social and an economic point of view, but that's probably coming from my own (admittedly very fortunate) perspective.”<br /><br />Ah, well, that may well be a reflection of the fact that I’m pre-geek, as it were. And I have no doubt that there are more opportunities for those who don’t fit into the traditional gender/social roles where high school/sixth form status is concerned. A good job too.<br /><br />Yet I do feel that it’s possible to overstate this change. Firstly because most folks who carry aspects of the “geek” identity aren’t outstandingly gifted; they’re typical, with a normal distribution of abilities among their numbers, just as non-geeks are. Peter Parker is outstanding, of course, which makes his lack of success in adult life impossible to believe in. But most of my students, for example, who weren’t able to or willing – usually both – to fit in with the Heathers were quite typical in their capacities. To be a geek isn’t of itself to be possessed of economic and social skills which can lead to a successful future. In truth, the lack of an ability to interact with a wider – and to my mind often far less interesting & compassionate – culture merely complicated an already challenging situation for most of my “geek”-ish youngsters. Most people have trouble finding their way. I certainly did. Unless you’re outstanding, existing outside the social codes of the typical just tends to add to one’s problems. I guess I worried about them when I was a teacher, and I worry about them now. <br /><br />Secondly, there’s a great deal of evidence that there’s a hardening of traditional gender roles in some ways, modified to fit in with modern consumerist culture, but traditional all the same. The rise of steroid abuse for cosmetic purposes among males, for example, out-strips, or so I’m told, all other drug abuse. Body fascism for all genders along with codes of appearance and behaviour which stand directly in comparison to traditional anti-jock values mean that the rise of geek culture – that’s shorthand of course – exists in a situation which can be more antagonistic than is often credited.<br /><br />cont;Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-60193521521726614892011-04-20T23:37:33.762+01:002011-04-20T23:37:33.762+01:00@ Colin: Thank you for your response and your clar...@ Colin: Thank you for your response and your clarification (the miscommunication is likely more my fault than yours). I think we might end up meeting in the middle. :)<br /><br />And regarding Spider-Man, I think you're entirely right about secondary school (which is why I think Ultimate Spider-Man does so well to keep Peter there), but I do think that once you get past that (as Peter did during Stan Lee's tenure), the outside world today is far more friendly to those with a niche or a geek leaning than it might have been years ago. Both from a social and an economic point of view, but that's probably coming from my own (admittedly very fortunate) perspective.<br /><br />I agree smart-ass bookworm Peter Parker in secondary school will still get hassle, but I like to think smart-ass bookworm Peter Parker coming out of college would be more likely to have a steady job and earn more money than the rest of his class.<br /><br />(And, again, perhaps, the fact that we use this as a measure of success plays into the point you sort of implied about changing societal values - the rise of celebrity, which I agree isn't coincidental to Marvel's social shift. I wrote a post a little while back about whether, in this age of celebrity, the secret identity was almost an artifact - we all grow up taught we're going to be special or famous, so why would Superman pretend to be boring old Clark Kent these days when he could be Superman all the time?)Darrenhttp://m0vie.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com