tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post4872507496271004696..comments2024-02-22T02:31:34.108+00:00Comments on Too Busy Thinking About My Comics: Lex Luthor, Dr Robert Hare & The Psychopathy Check-List: Points On A Curve No. 5Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-41973547978489123092010-05-21T16:08:39.259+01:002010-05-21T16:08:39.259+01:00Hello Andrew! It must be a pressure drop for you r...Hello Andrew! It must be a pressure drop for you re-entering the other areas of your life now that the intensity of the election is through. Mind you, you've always struck me as a bloke who engages intensely with all that he does, so I suspect your "normal" life is the equal of mine at about 95% of capacity at least.<br /><br />Your comment fascinated me, as you'll see when you get my reply to it, and because to answer it would perhaps take me off-topic here, I've e-mailed you some words. I hope that's alright, and thank you very much for both your kind and your informative words.Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-77740841229156592212010-05-21T15:12:47.990+01:002010-05-21T15:12:47.990+01:00Wonderful post (only just started reading non-poli...Wonderful post (only just started reading non-politics blogs again after the last turbulent six weeks...)<br /><br />I don't have *quite* the same respect for Hare's work that you do, for one reason - Hare is working from a (necessarily) biased sample, of those psychopaths who have come to his attention through their psychopathy.<br /><br />I know at least one person with an extensive knowledge of psychology who has self-diagnosed with psychopathy - and knowing him I have no reason to disbelieve this diagnosis. However, his actual behaviour, in almost every respect, has been of net benefit rather than detriment to the people he knows and to humanity in general. That's because he's convinced himself using rational argument that in general it's better to behave like 'a good person' rather than 'a bad person' - that the normal tactics of the psychopath are counterproductive. I actually have rather more respect for him because he manages to be one of the more decent people I know while having to work for it rather than by instinct.<br /><br />This suggests to me that a) psychopathy is far more curable than Hare thinks, and b) there might be a lot more psychopaths out there who *don't* act in a psychopathic manner but 'are' psychopaths inside.<br /><br />(That said, Hare's work as far as it goes *is* important, and it's very unfortunate that we live in a society which actually promotes psychopathy. My guess is that a minimum of two of the six Prime Ministers in my lifetime have been psychopaths, and I'm reserving judgement on at least two more...)Andrew Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07412263807838661843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-9860303296700766492010-04-28T07:12:28.512+01:002010-04-28T07:12:28.512+01:00Hello, Mr E - and of course it's an absolutely...Hello, Mr E - and of course it's an absolutely relevant comment to make, because it's exactly what I love about how good folks often kindly respond to these PointsOnACurve pieces. They tell about their own versions of characters, and the moment these discussions step out of "I'm right & I can prove it through continuity" to "This is what I think and feel and this is why.", I cease worrying about my own take/opinion and just become fascinated by those of others, as my comments above will surely indicate. <br /><br />It's another measure of how I do feel that this autobiographical component of how we respond to comics is central. It often seems to me that writing about comics can - with many splendid exceptions, of course - seperate into quick reviews and humourous pieces and the big, dry, almost-defensive academic piece, where the writer can seem a touch scared that if they drop their learned references & style they'll get caught out READING COMIC BOOKS! But I along with many thousands of folks am convinced that READING COMIC BOOKS is a fine thing without either over-intellectualisng or, perhaps, on occasion, deliberately avoiding depth because it seems pretentious and somehow indulgent.<br /><br />I know we both admire the old Comics Journal, which at its best was both serious and playful. Actually, I LOVED the old Comics Journal, and even when it irritated me with an anti-heroic fiction stance or an overly-precious and dry style, I felt it took thinking seriously and comics too. And I always thought that was better & far more respectful than sycophancy or an almost disengaged brevity.<br /><br />And because of the way I get caught up in other folks' takes on these characters, I always end reading what they've got to say by being convinced that they're right too! I read your words and my love for that Maggin-Bates-Pasko period of Superman flooded back to me. Because much of it hasn't been collected, it isn't to hand for me, and somehow I let it slip from my mind. But that was a very fine and protracted period of "Superman" stories, with the wonderful Curt Swan on art, of course. And the moment I started reading your take on Luthor based on that period, I thought "Yep. That's right. It's certainly as valid as mine. It may well be better." How strange to realise how much I miss that era and the quality of the work! And that Lex too.<br /><br />The legacy of all those years teaching and studying so I could teach has affected my judgement where psychopathy is concerned. It's such a terrible condition and so pressing a social problem that when its' shadow crosses a character, I find it hard to disengage from that story-fact. And that may well have coloured my feelings for Lex. I think that I feel that if I discount the Waitress story, for example, somehow I'm running away from psychopathy & the challenges it poses.<br /><br />It's important that every villain doesn't become a psychopath. To give character's elements of psychopathy is to make them fearsome & fits with modern fiction's flirtation with elements of psychopathy - if not Dr Hare's understanding of it. But I suspect that it'll be hard to "de-psychopath" characters once the climate changes or new writers don't want to go in that direction.<br /><br />But you're absolutely right. I love the Luthor you evoke, as well as how cleverly & affectingly Grant Morrison gave us all the Luthors in "All-Star". That means there's another "Luthor" for my pantheon of criminal masterminds. And to celebrate, I think I'll take down my two Elliot S! Maggin Superman novels this morning and have a flick through their well-thumbed and well-loved pages.<br /><br />My best to you, Mr E, as always. Thank you for your kind words.Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-83974407001798475322010-04-28T00:26:10.499+01:002010-04-28T00:26:10.499+01:00A lovely bit of work that I've only just taken...A lovely bit of work that I've only just taken the time to read. A few thoughts on Luthor:<br /><br />My favourite (pre-Crisis) Luthor story was the one where he broke out of jail every year on Einstein's birthday, and spent the day celebrating and emulating the great scientist's life in small ways. Superman eventually catches wise and, on the way back to jail, flies him to Einstein's statue and lets him spend some time there. (A lovely panel - Luthor looking up at the statue and crying. "Happy Birthday... sir!") Lex even thanks Supes for taking the trouble - a momentary truce in the eternal war, a tiny piece of shared ground.<br /><br />My second favourite Luthor story is the one where he gatecrashes a meeting of Batman's enemies, who are trying to work out which of them killed the caped crusader, and claims that he did it as a side-effect of one of his anti-Superman schemes. It's a masterclass in arrogance as Luthor parades around in metaphorical crown and ermine as King Of The Supervillains, smiling, confident and on a completely different plane from this gaggle of circus freaks who spend all their time on some guy who can't even push a planet out of orbit. Not even a MOON! And they have trouble!<br /><br />My least favourite Luthor story is that John Byrne bit where Fat Luthor does an "indecent proposal" whammy on a waitress just to be a dick. After those other two, it just seemed... un-Luthor-y, somehow. Luthor was King Of The Villains, the second Einstein, who won us over with his devil-may-care smile even as he turned up the power of those killing rays a trifle - the fiend! Not some fat creepy sweaty guy making inappropriate advances at waitresses. That's just sad.<br /><br />What does this have to do with anything? I suppose just that I really hated Byrne's Luthor, which I guess was the point, but I didn't enjoy hating him - I preferred reading, say, Elliot S! Maggin's take, who was secretly rather likeable. So I guess I prefer Luthor not to be a complete psychopath - I prefer the Luthor I secretly like to secretly like to the Luthor I hate to hate.<br /><br />(All-Star Superman, of course, offers us both - a Luthor who is completely, utterly evil, but at the same time has the kingly flair, the charm, the foibles and, in Quintum, the possibility of redemption. Absolutely a perfect Luthor, IMO.)<br /><br />Not sure how relevent all that was to your excellent post, but hey ho, that's my take on Luthor.Al Ewingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-57903021919528134022010-04-26T20:40:10.495+01:002010-04-26T20:40:10.495+01:00Hello Yan - I very much appreciated your kind word...Hello Yan - I very much appreciated your kind words. As for having alot of reading to do, I fear we all have alot of reading around here!Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-46171784699299255622010-04-26T04:41:49.273+01:002010-04-26T04:41:49.273+01:00I've just discovered this blog and I want to s...I've just discovered this blog and I want to say my mind has been blown! <br /><br />I have a lot of reading to do.Yan Basquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12188814820654379029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-28145847149690905942010-04-26T01:25:35.503+01:002010-04-26T01:25:35.503+01:00Hello Dean - and thanks for the kind words. I agre...Hello Dean - and thanks for the kind words. I agree with you to a significant degree about the corporate characters, but then I think that some of them are fine characters and that I'm damned if I'm going to let the short-termist policies of some parts of these corporations take these much-loved-by-me figures away from me. By the same token, I don't care who has the rights to Sherlock Holmes or Tarzan. I don't care what they do with them. These characters are made of a strangely powerful substance & I refuse to let money and power get in the way of my affection for them. It's not Clark Kent's fault that he's not always been treated with respect, is it?<br /><br />Or, and I write this at a far too late hour in the English night, is that the writing of a crazy man?<br /><br />Thanks, Dean. Sleep well yourself ....Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-33286240052795501122010-04-26T01:19:33.653+01:002010-04-26T01:19:33.653+01:00Hi Bill - and the voice of dear ol'Bill Hicks ...Hi Bill - and the voice of dear ol'Bill Hicks came to mind when I read your comment - "Looks like we got ourselves a reader ... "Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-40552349796840794692010-04-26T00:26:59.663+01:002010-04-26T00:26:59.663+01:00Excellent work, as always.
I love your "poin...Excellent work, as always.<br /><br />I love your "points on a curve" model. To be honest, finding out what the individual points are on a given creator's curve is about the only thing that really interests me about these corporately owned super people anymore. I gave up believing that one story counted anymore than another a very long time ago.<br /><br />With regard to Lex Luthor, you did a great job hammering home exactly why and how he is a monster.Dean H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17923782800713104454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-37537231437378466222010-04-25T21:59:22.014+01:002010-04-25T21:59:22.014+01:00Ha. No, I like books.Ha. No, I like books.Bill Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14811238618910477219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-43983398365450182842010-04-25T08:49:10.350+01:002010-04-25T08:49:10.350+01:00Hello Bill - and thank you for your enigmatic comm...Hello Bill - and thank you for your enigmatic comment. I hope that was an "entire book" which it was OK for you to plough through. I do certainly know what you mean though, for good or ill. I got to the end of the Luthor piece, did a word check and thought "That's it. That's finally the one that'll close the blog."<br /><br />I mean, I always felt that I couldn't compete with the shorter-form blogs, and that I'd need to try something different. But I keep finding STUFF that I'd like to talk about & it bullies me, Bill. It bullies me.<br /><br />Anybody reading this far into the blog who likes good blogging will surely already know that clicking on Bill's name above will take them to some excellent material, including entries on wriitng & film, and of course Bill's work on ComicBookResources is always worth catching in his Sunday Brunch column. He's been a good egg to this blog & we here are always in the vanguard of the Bill Reed army.<br /><br />So if you see a stunned bloke called Bill muttering "A whole book .... a whole book .... ", get him a cab & make sure he gets safely home, will you? Thanks.Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-26085557455925305922010-04-25T03:44:01.379+01:002010-04-25T03:44:01.379+01:00I feel as if I've just read an entire book. Ma...I feel as if I've just read an entire book. Maybe I did.Bill Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14811238618910477219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-31082959755525563032010-04-24T19:14:07.147+01:002010-04-24T19:14:07.147+01:00Hello Mike - and thank you for your thoughts. Thos...Hello Mike - and thank you for your thoughts. Those good folks who'll persevere with the epic pieces I put up twice a week or so should have the absolute right, I reckon, to comment back at length! I appreciate you doing so.<br /><br />I like the way you refered to the efforts by Dr Hare and his many colleagues as quixotic. The word has an appropriate air, and yet Dr Hare and his team has already designed the PLC-R. There may yet be miracles from the hard work invested in by criminal psychologists yet!<br /><br />The whole question of treatment for psychopaths is an absolute moral nightmare, as you indicate. With the knowledge we know have, we can see that an huge amount of all serious and consistent crime and anti-social behaviour is committed by a hard core of psychopaths. Take them out of the equation, one might argue, and we are all massively better off in quality of life, in wealth, in just about every way possible. Dr Hare is on the side of humane treatment & constant work on treatment, and I feel I'd be an idiot not to listen to the experts here. But I wonder whether when this information trickles out into the public consciousness there might be a call for mass screening & confinement. I can easily imagine a science-fiction future where kids are screened and mass detentions are undertaken in the name of "general defence". Sooner or later, there are scary choices ahead of us, and I hope that "normal" humans retain their faith in humane principles when that happens.<br /><br />In the "real" world, "serious" psychopaths don't have the mental equipment to care about right and wrong. Our ideas about right and wrong are based on the idea of the social contract, a common interest shared by all citizens which is best protected and advanced by working together under a rule of law. The psychopath can't feel they are part of any society and so, though they know that other people think "x" is right or wrong, the psychopath doesn't. It's not a mental ability to grasp law or the existence of rules; it's the inability to empathise with others and grasp/care that those rules/standards apply to them. So confinement is the only option now. (Psychopaths can't be put to good use. They will subvert whatever purpose they're put to. My students used to ask why they don't get put in the army, where the violence might be of use. But of course to be of use, they'd have to be trustworthy and follow orders. No chance. Psychopaths disappear from battlefields and their comrades very quickly ....)<br /><br />Luthor's sister? The planet which loved him as "their" Superman. They're pets, Mike, property. If they cross him, or if he's irritated on a whim, then they're going to suffer. Or so it would be if he IS a psychopath. If he's not, then perhaps Superman is right and there is good in him.<br /><br />But Clark sees good in everyone. That's why we love him so. I'm sure that anti-psychopathy in Superman is the emotional heart of his appeal.<br /><br />If Luthor is a psychopath, then he could well choose to help others because it displays his power, accentuates his status, allows him to play the "Big Man". If not, then maybe he can be redeemed. (Though it'd take several lifetimes in Hell being punished for me to think he's in any way paid for his crimes .... although if he's wired up that way, is he morally culpable? .... argh!)<br /><br />I liked your point about "Luthor Syndrome", but I guess it's to be expected. If 1% of Americans are psychopaths, then we'd expect the DC Universe to throw up a significant number of super-psychopaths. It is a genuine wonder that that world survives from sunrise to sunset.<br /><br />Thank you very much for your comment. I always feel I have a greater grasp of the limitations of my own thinking after reading the likes of the splendid comments left by Dean and yourself here. I hope you have a good, psychopath-free day.Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-71513740226316380632010-04-24T14:10:18.530+01:002010-04-24T14:10:18.530+01:00A few quick thoughts:
- Your post made for fascin...A few quick thoughts:<br /><br />- Your post made for fascinating reading, and I will be sure to look up some more about Dr. Hare. His accomplishment with the PCL-R is most impressive. The romantic notion of the quixotic task has always appealed to me, and his working to reform psychopaths is a noble task.<br /><br />- Of course, your musings about reforming psychopaths makes me wonder if we should. Does a potential danger to society supercede one's right to, say, refuse treatment? I find myself surprised that I'm thinking "yes." Perhaps the psychopath can be used for productive purposes (as has been done with Luthor, when he's in mad scientist mode and the government captures him), but is that any better? Does that take away one's right to self-determination any worse? If one's condition is truly mental illness, as defined by the current DSM, then it should be treated. If one's condition leads to criminal activity, the actions should be punished according to the confines of the law. <br /><br />- So, should Luthor be on some sort of medication, in a mental institution, or just go to jail? In terms of story potential, cutting a deal with the government or being sent to an easily-escapable jail, or not getting convicted in the first place, works best. In the "real world," however, is Luthor responsible for his actions? Can he tell right from wrong? <br /><br />If he is a psychopath, then he has no remorse over his actions. As the Kandor trial panel from (the much better version of) "Death of Superman" shows, Luthor could not conceive of paying for his crimes. Additionally, he sees nothing wrong with endangering the citizens of Metropolis in order to destroy Superman, sees nothing wrong with forming various Injustice Gangs, sees nothing wrong with using people in every way possible... <br /><br />- But: he did bring those dead kids back to life in "Rock of Ages," and didn't have a comeback when Superman said there was some good in him. I loved that little exchange because Superman's seemingly naive theory, that there's always hope and no one is 100% evil, was validated, and Luthor was taken down a peg, if only for a panel or two.<br /><br />I've read very few pre-Crisis Superman stories, so this is 3rd hand at best: Luthor had a sister he actually cared about. Luthor had a planet in which he was worshipped as a hero. Luthor was moved to help starving people in Africa in "Heroes Against Hunger." He's definitely evil, but there might be a sliver of good in him. <br /><br />In that case, Superman beats him again.<br /><br />- There is a new diagnosis in the DCU, "Luthor's syndrome," characterized by extreme narcissism, obssessive tendencies, the compulsion to work through one's obssessions, extreme brilliance, reduced or lacking empathy, normal or high social competence, the need to control people/ environments. See also: The Chief, Dr. Sivana (maybe, I know relatively little about the Capt. Marvel characters), Kobra, Maxwell Lord (including post-JLI stories I would excise from my personal continuity).<br /><br />- Did I say quick thoughts? Heh.<br /><br />- Mike LoughlinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-90080151909810374932010-04-24T08:27:27.979+01:002010-04-24T08:27:27.979+01:00Hello Justin - always a pleasure to have you drop ...Hello Justin - always a pleasure to have you drop in! And I can't help but be pleased that you looked up Dr Hare, because he really is a modest & quietly important man. More power to his elbow, as it were.<br /><br />On your fascinating Leo Quintum thought: Dr Hare is adamant that we must keep working on finding treatments for psychopathy even if we haven't any now, and that we must continue trying even if it seems hopeless. Putting aside the argument that psychopaths are in a sense quite natural & that it would be from one perspective wrong to change them - just as it would be wrong for a psychopath to take our empathy away - Dr Hare himself is interested in strategies that convince the psychopath rationally that there's more to be gained from being with us than against us. (I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't what inspired "Dexter", by the way.)<br /><br />I've read pieces which have talked in a rather vague way about inserting an "emotion" chip into psychopath's brains so that they can feel empathy. The science isn't here yet, but with the current rapid development of neuroscience, who's to say that it won't be with us soon?<br /><br />So, Leo Quintum, if he is Lex, and I do like the theory, could be a Luthor who comes from a future where empathy has been succesfully implanted into him. He would then regret his actions and try to maximise how he might meddle with the past to partially redeem himself.<br /><br />I too am torn between which Luthor is the one to go with. Maybe the "fact" that he may be one day redeemable squares that circle for us?<br /><br />Thanks for your comments. I hope you're having a fine day.Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-14945300908105592362010-04-24T04:39:36.395+01:002010-04-24T04:39:36.395+01:00Well, of course I had to look up Dr. Hare and his ...Well, of course I had to look up Dr. Hare and his work after reading this, so you have inspired at least one person (and I'm sure I'm not the only one).<br /><br />Anyway. One component of your personal interpretation of Luthor that you're laying out is that he *cannot* be redeemed (correct me if I'm misreading). And since you use All-Star Superman in your own personal canon, I wondered what you thought of the theory that Leo Quintum is, in fact, a Lex Luthor who has reformed and gone backwards through time to aid Superman in his hour of need. Tim O'Neil laid it out pretty well in a post, if you're not familar with it.<br /><br />I myself am torn. Which is more perfect, a Luthor who's so touched by Superman's influence (and his epiphany in All-Star #12) that he's persuaded to be the man he has the potential to become, or a Luthor whose sheer force of will has him unrepentant to the last, a bastard through and through? Both are appealing to me, and I'm glad Morrison left it ambiguous enough that I'm not forced to choose.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16490957677766912068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-37726133408305841652010-04-23T23:38:11.969+01:002010-04-23T23:38:11.969+01:00Hello Mr J - I appreciate an experienced blogger, ...Hello Mr J - I appreciate an experienced blogger, and indeed writer, taking the time to say that. My best to you!<br /><br />Anybody who doesn't know Mr J's blogs need only click on his name above & off y'go. They're fun & they absolutely show the appropriate respect to Rex The Wonder Dog.Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246781681702128600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5618879740460069575.post-17314158573841613002010-04-23T23:28:22.228+01:002010-04-23T23:28:22.228+01:00That was simply awesome.That was simply awesome.Josh Reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10799600827217221916noreply@blogger.com